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	<title>Comments on: A Mormon Social Doctrine?</title>
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	<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/</link>
	<description>By Common Consent is the pre-eminent Mormon blog.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-184572</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>"Their language tends to emphasize that an issue is moral, and hence the purview of religious leaders."

I'm curious as to why certain political issues get branded as moral, while others do not. It seems to me that most political, and even economic issues are also moral issues, such as war, torture, social services for the poor, etc. It seems the we as Latter-day Saints should broaden our view of what issues are "moral." On the other hand, just because something is not moral, doesn't necessarily mean it should be banned by law. Some things, it seems, should be preached against, but not legislated against.

www.themormonworker.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Their language tends to emphasize that an issue is moral, and hence the purview of religious leaders.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious as to why certain political issues get branded as moral, while others do not. It seems to me that most political, and even economic issues are also moral issues, such as war, torture, social services for the poor, etc. It seems the we as Latter-day Saints should broaden our view of what issues are &#8220;moral.&#8221; On the other hand, just because something is not moral, doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean it should be banned by law. Some things, it seems, should be preached against, but not legislated against.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.themormonworker.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.themormonworker.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: LDS Art Collector</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-184131</link>
		<dc:creator>LDS Art Collector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3930#comment-184131</guid>
		<description>Great Post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great Post.</p>
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		<title>By: Monson (really)</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-184120</link>
		<dc:creator>Monson (really)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Re. #10, I'm not sure many church members are advocating "for same-sex marriages," only for the freedom of gay people to get married. Not support, just not refusal. It's an important distinction, I think. 

Also, I'm curious what you all think Joseph Smith's stance on the California issue would be. My gut thinking is that he would be ok with the amendment, esp. since it's a state enacting(presumably fairly popular) state legislation. But I don't know. 

In any case, I've gotten some angry IMs today from friends and coworkers reading this story: http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9675600?nclick_check=1. I don't feel like it would be appropriate for me to apologize for the actions of the First Presidency to my non-mormon associates, so I basically hem and haw, but I hope this isn't the type of issue the church itself ends up apologizing for 10 years from now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. #10, I&#8217;m not sure many church members are advocating &#8220;for same-sex marriages,&#8221; only for the freedom of gay people to get married. Not support, just not refusal. It&#8217;s an important distinction, I think. </p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;m curious what you all think Joseph Smith&#8217;s stance on the California issue would be. My gut thinking is that he would be ok with the amendment, esp. since it&#8217;s a state enacting(presumably fairly popular) state legislation. But I don&#8217;t know. </p>
<p>In any case, I&#8217;ve gotten some angry IMs today from friends and coworkers reading this story: <a href="http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9675600?nclick_check=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9675600?nclick_check=1</a>. I don&#8217;t feel like it would be appropriate for me to apologize for the actions of the First Presidency to my non-mormon associates, so I basically hem and haw, but I hope this isn&#8217;t the type of issue the church itself ends up apologizing for 10 years from now.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-184044</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3930#comment-184044</guid>
		<description>#6 - Ditto.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#6 - Ditto.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt Eddy</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-184042</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt Eddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 01:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3930#comment-184042</guid>
		<description>During polygamy, did members have the option of speaking out against polygamy? What happened if they did? With ERA, were members for ERA sanctioned? Sonia Johnson comes to mind. Obviously, during MX they were not, since the bulk of Utahans were originally for MX and in opposition to the Church's ultimate stand against it. What happened after the Church announced and the member retained a pro stance? Talk about flip floppers. What happened to members who, in a political sense, called upon the church to change its stance on blacks and the priesthood before June 8, 1978? Wasn't Byron Marchant, for example, excommunicated for not sustaining President Kimball over the issue? Now, during the current era, what happens to members who advocate for same-sex marriage? Haven't I read where the Church is going after such members, too? (e.g., Danzig) So, I am interested in this topic and the doctrine that governs the matter. It seems to me that many bloggers participating in the Mormon blogosphere have expressed that they are for same-sex marriages. What is the doctrine governing moral dissent? Good questions and discussion topic, David.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>During polygamy, did members have the option of speaking out against polygamy? What happened if they did? With ERA, were members for ERA sanctioned? Sonia Johnson comes to mind. Obviously, during MX they were not, since the bulk of Utahans were originally for MX and in opposition to the Church&#8217;s ultimate stand against it. What happened after the Church announced and the member retained a pro stance? Talk about flip floppers. What happened to members who, in a political sense, called upon the church to change its stance on blacks and the priesthood before June 8, 1978? Wasn&#8217;t Byron Marchant, for example, excommunicated for not sustaining President Kimball over the issue? Now, during the current era, what happens to members who advocate for same-sex marriage? Haven&#8217;t I read where the Church is going after such members, too? (e.g., Danzig) So, I am interested in this topic and the doctrine that governs the matter. It seems to me that many bloggers participating in the Mormon blogosphere have expressed that they are for same-sex marriages. What is the doctrine governing moral dissent? Good questions and discussion topic, David.</p>
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		<title>By: greenfrog</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-183991</link>
		<dc:creator>greenfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3930#comment-183991</guid>
		<description>Thank you for posting this, David.

Your point about Pope Benedict XVI's analysis is interesting; as you've articulated it, it seems to be a step back from post-modernism, rather than a solution to it.  That is, it doesn't sound like an acknowledgement that, in fact, culture and context and environment shape not only the form, but also the content of a particular experience/event/understanding.  

Whether I've correctly understood his position or not, it seems to me that any principled basis for seeking to prevent others from acting in accordance with their conscience has to speak either of the effect of the action on the actor or the effect of the action on the object of the action.  From an LDS perspective, the answer to your inquiry may be nothing more than, "...because we believe that God said so..."  In the context of Pope Benedict's statement, such a perspective might be understood as a similar retrenchment from post-modernist dis-integration of authority in the face of diversity, or it could be a perspective from a higher ordinate, akin to parents' understanding of children.  

Either way, I'm not sure it provides interesting theories to explain the historical gap in Church political arena efforts, but perhaps those result more from extrinsic pressures more than theoretical constraints (i.e., Church sought to avoid political limelight during early post-polygamy   years for fear of additional governmental intervention/punishment; Church relatively impoverished and therefore unable to affect political discourse during mid-20s through early 60s).  

Anyway, I found your post provocative of a number of thoughts, and I appreciate that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for posting this, David.</p>
<p>Your point about Pope Benedict XVI&#8217;s analysis is interesting; as you&#8217;ve articulated it, it seems to be a step back from post-modernism, rather than a solution to it.  That is, it doesn&#8217;t sound like an acknowledgement that, in fact, culture and context and environment shape not only the form, but also the content of a particular experience/event/understanding.  </p>
<p>Whether I&#8217;ve correctly understood his position or not, it seems to me that any principled basis for seeking to prevent others from acting in accordance with their conscience has to speak either of the effect of the action on the actor or the effect of the action on the object of the action.  From an LDS perspective, the answer to your inquiry may be nothing more than, &#8220;&#8230;because we believe that God said so&#8230;&#8221;  In the context of Pope Benedict&#8217;s statement, such a perspective might be understood as a similar retrenchment from post-modernist dis-integration of authority in the face of diversity, or it could be a perspective from a higher ordinate, akin to parents&#8217; understanding of children.  </p>
<p>Either way, I&#8217;m not sure it provides interesting theories to explain the historical gap in Church political arena efforts, but perhaps those result more from extrinsic pressures more than theoretical constraints (i.e., Church sought to avoid political limelight during early post-polygamy   years for fear of additional governmental intervention/punishment; Church relatively impoverished and therefore unable to affect political discourse during mid-20s through early 60s).  </p>
<p>Anyway, I found your post provocative of a number of thoughts, and I appreciate that.</p>
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		<title>By: kevinf</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-183981</link>
		<dc:creator>kevinf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:39:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3930#comment-183981</guid>
		<description>David,

My understanding of some major theological differences between the Catholic Church and our church is our unfettered and direct access to the divine through prayer and revelation, whereas Catholics seek access through saints, and via the clergy, rather than a direct relationship with God.  I hope I have not misstated that position.

That sets up a difference then from the current Pope in that we still believe in individualism through seeking confirmation via prayer for what our prophets teach and the church espouses.  Hence, I would say that in our theology, individualism is not by definition, anti-moral.  It does set up an internal tension and paradox when the Church does take these stands on political and legal issues that are determined to have moral implications.  The current letter to California members, however, is less ambiguous than the one I saw for Washington State last year regarding the Federal DOMA.  That one said only to let your personal view be known to your Senators, and did not specifically say that should be only in support of the  DOMA.  This letter is more specific, leaving the individual less wiggle room for personal conscience.  I perceive that to be a change from how the church has worded the letters in the past that I have firsthand knowledge of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>My understanding of some major theological differences between the Catholic Church and our church is our unfettered and direct access to the divine through prayer and revelation, whereas Catholics seek access through saints, and via the clergy, rather than a direct relationship with God.  I hope I have not misstated that position.</p>
<p>That sets up a difference then from the current Pope in that we still believe in individualism through seeking confirmation via prayer for what our prophets teach and the church espouses.  Hence, I would say that in our theology, individualism is not by definition, anti-moral.  It does set up an internal tension and paradox when the Church does take these stands on political and legal issues that are determined to have moral implications.  The current letter to California members, however, is less ambiguous than the one I saw for Washington State last year regarding the Federal DOMA.  That one said only to let your personal view be known to your Senators, and did not specifically say that should be only in support of the  DOMA.  This letter is more specific, leaving the individual less wiggle room for personal conscience.  I perceive that to be a change from how the church has worded the letters in the past that I have firsthand knowledge of.</p>
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		<title>By: David Knowlton</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-183978</link>
		<dc:creator>David Knowlton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3930#comment-183978</guid>
		<description>Ben, you miss a big middle period of Americanization between Kirtland etc and the ERA, MX, etc.  I am not challenging the Church's political actions in this post.  Part of the notions of Americanization and hence secularity was the development of what the sociologists describe as a limitation of religion to the private sphere where its role was primarily that of providing a moral education and discipline. Americanization also involved a particular set of notions about the nature of individuals and their place in society, as a result. Charles Taylor takes all this on masterfully.

The "outrage" you describe (a word that does not describe my position--one of studied neutrality--on the issue) is curious.  It stems from an idea that religion belongs in the private sphere and not in the public domain.  That idea became widespread and socially entrenched in large sectors of American and other societies.  A movement back into the public sector is an important shift that needs observation. 

Please clarify the links you see stemming from the book of Mormon that explain the theology of society and religious authorities' action within it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, you miss a big middle period of Americanization between Kirtland etc and the ERA, MX, etc.  I am not challenging the Church&#8217;s political actions in this post.  Part of the notions of Americanization and hence secularity was the development of what the sociologists describe as a limitation of religion to the private sphere where its role was primarily that of providing a moral education and discipline. Americanization also involved a particular set of notions about the nature of individuals and their place in society, as a result. Charles Taylor takes all this on masterfully.</p>
<p>The &#8220;outrage&#8221; you describe (a word that does not describe my position&#8211;one of studied neutrality&#8211;on the issue) is curious.  It stems from an idea that religion belongs in the private sphere and not in the public domain.  That idea became widespread and socially entrenched in large sectors of American and other societies.  A movement back into the public sector is an important shift that needs observation. </p>
<p>Please clarify the links you see stemming from the book of Mormon that explain the theology of society and religious authorities&#8217; action within it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-183977</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:14:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3930#comment-183977</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;What is the LDS doctrine justifying a shift from seeing moral issues as a matter of individual conscience, and hence merit, to requiring morality as a matter of law?&lt;/em&gt;

I'm not sure your premise is justifiable.  Among other things, the Book of Mormon is a treatment of the interrelationship between religious authority and political authority.  The history of the Restoration is filled with religious authority and political authority being comingled, and moral law seen often in line with legislative activities.  

I don't know where you see a "shift" occurring, and when the church was not involved in politics, be it gambling or MX missiles or blue laws or prohibition or ERA (the support of which was rather overstated in your post -- the church's actions could not be said to be the determining factor in its failure to pass. Lots of other states besides Utah failed to ratify.)  In fact, it's not too hard to trace a bright line of political activity around moral issues back through Kirtland at least.

What has been shifting, perhaps, is the American politic, which has increasingly challenged issues that were seen as strictly moral ones.  You may remember the arguments that ERA was a slippery slope to unisex bathrooms and same-sex marriages.  At the time, such arguments were ridiculed as lacking seriousness.  As the ground traditionally under the purview of the faith establishment has been brought into the political process, it seems unremarkable that the faith community has spoken up and mobilized as part of the debate.

What is remarkable, in fact, is that so many feel a sense of outrage that the faith institutions would dare speak up.  That attitude, I think, is most interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>What is the LDS doctrine justifying a shift from seeing moral issues as a matter of individual conscience, and hence merit, to requiring morality as a matter of law?</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure your premise is justifiable.  Among other things, the Book of Mormon is a treatment of the interrelationship between religious authority and political authority.  The history of the Restoration is filled with religious authority and political authority being comingled, and moral law seen often in line with legislative activities.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where you see a &#8220;shift&#8221; occurring, and when the church was not involved in politics, be it gambling or MX missiles or blue laws or prohibition or ERA (the support of which was rather overstated in your post &#8212; the church&#8217;s actions could not be said to be the determining factor in its failure to pass. Lots of other states besides Utah failed to ratify.)  In fact, it&#8217;s not too hard to trace a bright line of political activity around moral issues back through Kirtland at least.</p>
<p>What has been shifting, perhaps, is the American politic, which has increasingly challenged issues that were seen as strictly moral ones.  You may remember the arguments that ERA was a slippery slope to unisex bathrooms and same-sex marriages.  At the time, such arguments were ridiculed as lacking seriousness.  As the ground traditionally under the purview of the faith establishment has been brought into the political process, it seems unremarkable that the faith community has spoken up and mobilized as part of the debate.</p>
<p>What is remarkable, in fact, is that so many feel a sense of outrage that the faith institutions would dare speak up.  That attitude, I think, is most interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/a-mormon-social-doctrine/#comment-183976</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wasn't the LDS position less libertarianism than simply making moral laws on as local a level as possible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wasn&#8217;t the LDS position less libertarianism than simply making moral laws on as local a level as possible?</p>
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