<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: That power which still produceth ill, whilst ever scheming good</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/</link>
	<description>By Common Consent is the pre-eminent Mormon blog.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 05:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Tatiana</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178788</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 01:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178788</guid>
		<description>This is so true! Thanks for this post.  I've always felt that it's not enough to mean well, one also has to actually help bring about a good outcome, or else one hasn't helped.  This view can be a recipe for frustration and sadness, because so many things are out of my direct control.  However, it helps me to remember to give full due to the principle of agency in all circumstances.  When I've done everything I can do (including asking what others would have me do to help, and following their requests to the extent that I'm able), then I've done my part.  I try always to act in order to bring more and better choices to others, to allow them to exercise their agency under the most favorable conditions possible.  But then they are the ones who are in charge of exercising their agency, not me.  I can't make life choices for anyone but myself.  I can only advise and guide, and do my best to provide favorable conditions for good life choices for others.  I can't be the one who is choosing.  That responsibility is God-given and not usurpable by me.

This is particularly true of parenthood, as you said.  It is a terrifying prospect, to have so much influence on another person's life.  I only pray I don't mess up too badly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so true! Thanks for this post.  I&#8217;ve always felt that it&#8217;s not enough to mean well, one also has to actually help bring about a good outcome, or else one hasn&#8217;t helped.  This view can be a recipe for frustration and sadness, because so many things are out of my direct control.  However, it helps me to remember to give full due to the principle of agency in all circumstances.  When I&#8217;ve done everything I can do (including asking what others would have me do to help, and following their requests to the extent that I&#8217;m able), then I&#8217;ve done my part.  I try always to act in order to bring more and better choices to others, to allow them to exercise their agency under the most favorable conditions possible.  But then they are the ones who are in charge of exercising their agency, not me.  I can&#8217;t make life choices for anyone but myself.  I can only advise and guide, and do my best to provide favorable conditions for good life choices for others.  I can&#8217;t be the one who is choosing.  That responsibility is God-given and not usurpable by me.</p>
<p>This is particularly true of parenthood, as you said.  It is a terrifying prospect, to have so much influence on another person&#8217;s life.  I only pray I don&#8217;t mess up too badly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178740</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter LLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 08:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178740</guid>
		<description>Ray-asking for input and considering custom solutions sounds about right.

Kevin: I side with Ray; it seems your son has a keen insight into the human condition.

smb/Researcher: thanks for pointing out the application to parenting; I'm not one yet and hadn't considering the awesome unpredictability of that particular calling!

Latter-day Guy: your quotation reminds me of a poorly done crown that turned into a root canal--talk about wailing and gnashing of teeth!

Ronan: maybe in absolute terms, but you have to view these things in context--compared to Elder X I was practically a saint and in contrast to Elder Y devoted to the White Handbook.

Molly: it sounds like your nurse reversed the third error by taking a long-term view when really only the immediate interests mattered. Thanks too for the reference; I will look it up.

Nora: I was truly surprised how difficult it was to organize rides. To be fair, many in the ward do not need a car in Vienna given its excellent public transportation network and most that do have kids filling the available seats, but that episode was a lesson in "just because it seems like it ought to be simple doesn't mean it is."

Gary: "It is easy to be right. It is much more difficult to be effective." Amen. And as Kevin noted above, the more annoying our efforts the louder the accolades.

California Condor: "I think that being set apart as a full-time missionary is in a way a license to be reckless." Maybe someday Ronan will tell his story of being a bold missionary. I know I haven't been able to muster a repeat performance since coming home.

Susan M: Hopefully he would be charitable enough to let you flee : )

Mark IV: I can always appreciate a good Shrek reference. Also, your point about expecation management is a good one and you are right that the error wasn't in taking some kind of action, but in assuming the plan would be sufficient to solve the problem.

Dave: that is as good advice as I've heard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray-asking for input and considering custom solutions sounds about right.</p>
<p>Kevin: I side with Ray; it seems your son has a keen insight into the human condition.</p>
<p>smb/Researcher: thanks for pointing out the application to parenting; I&#8217;m not one yet and hadn&#8217;t considering the awesome unpredictability of that particular calling!</p>
<p>Latter-day Guy: your quotation reminds me of a poorly done crown that turned into a root canal&#8211;talk about wailing and gnashing of teeth!</p>
<p>Ronan: maybe in absolute terms, but you have to view these things in context&#8211;compared to Elder X I was practically a saint and in contrast to Elder Y devoted to the White Handbook.</p>
<p>Molly: it sounds like your nurse reversed the third error by taking a long-term view when really only the immediate interests mattered. Thanks too for the reference; I will look it up.</p>
<p>Nora: I was truly surprised how difficult it was to organize rides. To be fair, many in the ward do not need a car in Vienna given its excellent public transportation network and most that do have kids filling the available seats, but that episode was a lesson in &#8220;just because it seems like it ought to be simple doesn&#8217;t mean it is.&#8221;</p>
<p>Gary: &#8220;It is easy to be right. It is much more difficult to be effective.&#8221; Amen. And as Kevin noted above, the more annoying our efforts the louder the accolades.</p>
<p>California Condor: &#8220;I think that being set apart as a full-time missionary is in a way a license to be reckless.&#8221; Maybe someday Ronan will tell his story of being a bold missionary. I know I haven&#8217;t been able to muster a repeat performance since coming home.</p>
<p>Susan M: Hopefully he would be charitable enough to let you flee : )</p>
<p>Mark IV: I can always appreciate a good Shrek reference. Also, your point about expecation management is a good one and you are right that the error wasn&#8217;t in taking some kind of action, but in assuming the plan would be sufficient to solve the problem.</p>
<p>Dave: that is as good advice as I&#8217;ve heard.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178737</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 04:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178737</guid>
		<description>Kevin, Your son is wise.  

I was involved in a Stake Leadership Training Meeting this evening, and I felt compelled to remind those who were in the AP Leadership group that "raising the bar" for the youth, their leaders and the parents does NOT mean establishing the bar at the same height for all YM.  Rather, imho, it should mean helping each individual YM jump a little higher than he was able to jump previously.  

If the bar is set at 7'6" for everyone, there will be much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth - and failure; if it is set at 3'0" for everyone, there will be much boredom and daydreaming and drifting away.  The key is to know each YM well enough to raise that YM's bar just high enough so that clearing it is possible but requires increased effort and growth and strength.  

I think that is applicable to this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, Your son is wise.  </p>
<p>I was involved in a Stake Leadership Training Meeting this evening, and I felt compelled to remind those who were in the AP Leadership group that &#8220;raising the bar&#8221; for the youth, their leaders and the parents does NOT mean establishing the bar at the same height for all YM.  Rather, imho, it should mean helping each individual YM jump a little higher than he was able to jump previously.  </p>
<p>If the bar is set at 7&#8242;6&#8243; for everyone, there will be much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth - and failure; if it is set at 3&#8242;0&#8243; for everyone, there will be much boredom and daydreaming and drifting away.  The key is to know each YM well enough to raise that YM&#8217;s bar just high enough so that clearing it is possible but requires increased effort and growth and strength.  </p>
<p>I think that is applicable to this post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Barney</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178734</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Barney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 02:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178734</guid>
		<description>My son was just today recalling a man who in priesthood opening exercises explained that he gave a pass-along card &lt;em&gt;to everyone &lt;/em&gt;he met.  This revelation was met with universal approbation and enthusiasm; my son was incredulous and remarked to me that that man must not have any friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son was just today recalling a man who in priesthood opening exercises explained that he gave a pass-along card <em>to everyone </em>he met.  This revelation was met with universal approbation and enthusiasm; my son was incredulous and remarked to me that that man must not have any friends.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178732</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 01:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178732</guid>
		<description>dutcher's states of grace is something like a story about this issue.
the old American Protestant division between Calvinist election and Methodist Arminianism (exists elsewhere, seemed to have been particularly broad and acute in antebellum America) speaks to this at some level, doesn't it? for our actions to be relevant to our salvation requires that they be predictable in some way. often they are not.

frankly this post reminds me of what I find so terrifying about parenthood. there's nothing i'd rather do right than raise my kids and nothing i think as unpredictable as parenting.  Thank God for God on this one, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dutcher&#8217;s states of grace is something like a story about this issue.<br />
the old American Protestant division between Calvinist election and Methodist Arminianism (exists elsewhere, seemed to have been particularly broad and acute in antebellum America) speaks to this at some level, doesn&#8217;t it? for our actions to be relevant to our salvation requires that they be predictable in some way. often they are not.</p>
<p>frankly this post reminds me of what I find so terrifying about parenthood. there&#8217;s nothing i&#8217;d rather do right than raise my kids and nothing i think as unpredictable as parenting.  Thank God for God on this one, I think.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Latter-day Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178724</link>
		<dc:creator>Latter-day Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 20:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178724</guid>
		<description>As in your missionary example, I think that people can receive the right help and resent it nonetheless. A child might need an injection, but is not generally grateful for it. Which is reminiscent of a great line from CS Lewis:

"What do people mean when they say 'I am not afraid of God because I know He is good?' Have they never ... been to a dentist?"

Like many things, I think, the rightness of acts of service sometimes may become clear only in the rear-view mirror.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As in your missionary example, I think that people can receive the right help and resent it nonetheless. A child might need an injection, but is not generally grateful for it. Which is reminiscent of a great line from CS Lewis:</p>
<p>&#8220;What do people mean when they say &#8216;I am not afraid of God because I know He is good?&#8217; Have they never &#8230; been to a dentist?&#8221;</p>
<p>Like many things, I think, the rightness of acts of service sometimes may become clear only in the rear-view mirror.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178723</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 20:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178723</guid>
		<description>Excellent, Peter.  

My main thought relates to the first "lack of knowledge" -  simply that we often believe we know what is best for others without bothering to get to know them intimately and ask them what they want for themselves.  I have seen that *way* too much in my administrative meetings over the years. If we stopped making this assumption and simply asked others for their input, most of these problems would disappear, imo - sometimes because the "solutions" will be manifest, but other times because we will realize that they weren't really problems in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent, Peter.  </p>
<p>My main thought relates to the first &#8220;lack of knowledge&#8221; -  simply that we often believe we know what is best for others without bothering to get to know them intimately and ask them what they want for themselves.  I have seen that *way* too much in my administrative meetings over the years. If we stopped making this assumption and simply asked others for their input, most of these problems would disappear, imo - sometimes because the &#8220;solutions&#8221; will be manifest, but other times because we will realize that they weren&#8217;t really problems in the first place.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ronan</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178722</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 19:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178722</guid>
		<description>Pete,
Let's face it, you &lt;em&gt;were&lt;/em&gt; a lousy missionary.

Other than that, great post. Many of my attempts to do good have resulted in failure, one spectacularly so. An old cliche will do: more speed, less haste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,<br />
Let&#8217;s face it, you <em>were</em> a lousy missionary.</p>
<p>Other than that, great post. Many of my attempts to do good have resulted in failure, one spectacularly so. An old cliche will do: more speed, less haste.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: molly bennion</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178721</link>
		<dc:creator>molly bennion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 18:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178721</guid>
		<description>"adherents are not concerned with the objective consequences of these actions but only with the subjective satisfaction of duty well performed."  

YES!  I think of the nurse a friend fired last week because, as he and everyone else knew he would die within days, she would not give him all the ice cream he wanted.  It was not "Healthy."

Long ago I decided duty was not to be my guiding principle in the Church.  It is a dangerous conclusion, but not as dangerous as doing everything asked of one.  Which reminds me of a wonderful story on point in the last Dialogue, "Entertaining Angels Unaware," by Laura McCune Poplin, V 42, #1 (Spring 2008), PP 91-112.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;adherents are not concerned with the objective consequences of these actions but only with the subjective satisfaction of duty well performed.&#8221;  </p>
<p>YES!  I think of the nurse a friend fired last week because, as he and everyone else knew he would die within days, she would not give him all the ice cream he wanted.  It was not &#8220;Healthy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Long ago I decided duty was not to be my guiding principle in the Church.  It is a dangerous conclusion, but not as dangerous as doing everything asked of one.  Which reminds me of a wonderful story on point in the last Dialogue, &#8220;Entertaining Angels Unaware,&#8221; by Laura McCune Poplin, V 42, #1 (Spring 2008), PP 91-112.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nora Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/that-power-which-still-produceth-ill-whilst-ever-scheming-good/#comment-178720</link>
		<dc:creator>Nora Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 18:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bycommonconsent.com/?p=3765#comment-178720</guid>
		<description>It is hard to help people the way they want/need to be helped because frequently it is inconvenient for us.  If someone could have given that young husband a ride to the church, that person might have gotten to know him well enough to know what his real needs were.  Ideally Home and Visiting Teachers would do this, but today's world is so hectic that often they just don't have the time to invest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is hard to help people the way they want/need to be helped because frequently it is inconvenient for us.  If someone could have given that young husband a ride to the church, that person might have gotten to know him well enough to know what his real needs were.  Ideally Home and Visiting Teachers would do this, but today&#8217;s world is so hectic that often they just don&#8217;t have the time to invest.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
