Youth Programs - You Make the Call
You have recently been called to a position in the ward that requires your attendance at ward council. You just moved in six months ago, and one of the things you noticed right away and really like is how people in the ward magnify their callings and go the extra mile in assuring that the work of the church goes smoothly. Your fellow council members are not only very talented people, they are also models of commitment and dedication. This is, hands down, the best ward you have ever lived in.
This Sunday the bishop has asked all auxiliaries to present a short overview of their planned activities for the year, as well as a ballpark budget number. It is no surprise that everyone is well prepared, with PowerPoint presentations and spreadsheets ready to hand out to the members of the council. The sheet from the Young Men’s president catches your eye because it contains some very big numbers. When it is his turn, he explains that plans are underway to take the young men of the ward to Philmont Scout ranch in New Mexico next Summer. Because of the distance, they plan to fly there, and it is a 12 day program, at $50 per day per participant. In round figures, the activity calls for about $33,000 to cover expenses for 22 boys and their adult advisors, or over $1,000 per head.
The young men’s president assures the council that plans are well underway to raise all the money privately, and you believe him. You have a regularly scheduled PPI with the bishop immediately after church today. Will you say anything about the planned YM activity? Why or why not? If your answer is yes, what will you say?
Shut it down. Shut it down now! An obscene waste of money.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 4:00 pm
Oh, I just know I’ll be saying *something,* but what I say depends both on what my own calling is and whether I have children and what their sexes are (yes, I know everybody else here would say “genders”) and how old they are and whether it’s Fast Sunday and whether I had a nap before church.
Comment by Ardis Parshall — April 8, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
This kind of thing really did happen once–youth trips to Hawaii, etc. But I thought it all came to a strict halt when ward budgets changed to be based on attendance at Sacrament Meeting rather than on donations. I’m really nervous that Mark B is not making this up. If this is a real thing, and the ward is rich enough to sustain such excesses, how can you know the Bishop will understand how inappropriate it is? $33,000. could provide a bunch of scholarships and humanitarian service. If these young people are going to become servants rather than spoiled brats with a huge sense of entitlement, such an activity must not happen. If the bishop is unresponsive, take it to the SP and then to the area authority. Somebody will get it.
Comment by Margaret Young — April 8, 2008 @ 4:13 pm
Philmont is the single greatest experience of my life before my mission. Worth every second of the many months I spent selling coupon books door to door.
Comment by Eric Russell — April 8, 2008 @ 4:13 pm
aren’t all other boy scouts that are not LDS that go to Philmont either required to pay for it themselves or else they have to fundraise?
Just cuz they’re Mormon boy scouts doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have to beg or scrounge their own money.
Comment by amri — April 8, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the YM/YW programs are the only auxiliaries allowed to raise funds outside of the budgets which are allocated by sacrament attendance.
$50/day for Philmont? How many s’mores can 22 kids eat?
Comment by MAC — April 8, 2008 @ 4:20 pm
I join in with #4. Though we traveled by VW bus given the small size of our group (I and another being the only LDS boys in the group) it was an adventure I remember some forty years later and was worth every dollar I earned by car washes and cleaning windows and mowing yards, etc…
Philmont is no “dude”ranch. It represents one of the best scouting experiences in the outdoors that one can have whether scout or leader. We hiked some 50 miles over the course of 8 days, camping at the top of one of the highest peaks in New Mexico or next to a mountain river stream.
As for the general question put in this blog my response is this: if my calling has absolutely nothing to do with the YM program, then its simply not my call nor my duty to tell the Bishop how to respond. That’s his stewardship.
Comment by Sam Kitterman — April 8, 2008 @ 4:22 pm
You are correct, Margaret. This is a real-world example, and the numbers are not ficticious.
Comment by Mark IV — April 8, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
The YW leader should get equal funding at the very least. This really is abhorrent.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 4:25 pm
Steve, where would you suggest the YW take their trip to?
Comment by Margaret Young — April 8, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
This reminds me of our yearly ward ski trip. No joke–
Comment by anon — April 8, 2008 @ 4:31 pm
To some extent, I guess, it depends on what “raise the funds privately” means. Back when I was that young, we took a trip somewhere for which we had to raise our own money. Some of the money came from our Priest Quorum advisor paying us to clean up at a construction site where he was constructing (or some such thing). If the private fundraising involves doing things that Scouts do to raise funds (and doesn’t involve calling the members of the ward), I don’t see any significant problem. Scouting is, after all (irrespective of the degree to which it’s been adopted) not part of our liturgy and sometimes Scout camps are far away and expensive. If they’re hitting up members and using ward funds, it’s not acceptable.
I don’t know precisely what the draw to Fillmore would be, but the Scout camps I went to were fun.
Comment by Sam B. — April 8, 2008 @ 4:35 pm
Margaret, I dunno - does the Niagara Spray Ironing Starch Factory give tours? Otherwise, perhaps a trip to the Janome or Singer HQs. Y’know, something practical.
I don’t know where the YW should go with that kind of money, but I’d recommend a climb up to Carnarvon Lake.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 4:36 pm
Some additional details:
1. The fundraising plan calls for ward members to employ the young men to mow their lawns ($30/week) and do other odd jobs, and to enroll in a service that involves the boys of the ward coming by on eight patriotic holidays and placing a flag in your yard so you don’t have to do it yourself. The service costs $120/year, or $15/event.
2. The current guidelines say that youth activities shouldn’t extend over a weekend, and that we shouldn’t sponsor events that require the youth to be gone from the ward over the Sabbath.
Comment by Mark IV — April 8, 2008 @ 4:43 pm
As the Bishop I enthusiastically approve knowing the Stake President will scotch the idea
Comment by rbc — April 8, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
I am surprised that this got under the radar screen. There are definite instructions from Church HQ that extravagant trips such as this be limited. However, last year a stake adjacent to ours in Oregon had planned to fly their youth (YM/YW) to SLC then bus them to Martin’s Cove where they would participate in a handcart trek. The budget approached over 100K. There was an uprising among the parents and the stake finally sent their youth to a handcart trek about 20 miles from the stake center. I was told that the experience offered them memories of a lifetime with a fraction of the cost.
Comment by Darrell — April 8, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
I think a trip to the Singer HQ which included two weeks of intensive sewing for orphans in Africa would be nice.
I do NOT have a testimony of scouting. I have never pressured my sons to get their Eagles. Only one of my four brothers has his. Bruce considers that his really belongs to his mother. My uncle once said that scouting was harder to get out of the Church than crabgrass was to get out of a lawn.
That’s where I am.
Comment by Margaret Young — April 8, 2008 @ 4:46 pm
Margaret, as long as they raise the money privately, as the young men are doing, they can go anywhere they want to.
Comment by Eric Russell — April 8, 2008 @ 4:49 pm
I’m generally in favor of this sort of thing, with some qualifications.
The church ought to do more to encourage individual initiative at the local level rather than try to squelch it. Indeed, without new thinking and novel approaches, I see little chance that YW will a rewarding experience for my girls. So, assuming that these sorts of unique events and activities are available to both the YM and YW, I’m all in favor.
The cost is admittedly something of a concern. In some wards, it would create real problems. In the ward I currently live in, though, it would not be an issue. (In fact, last year, the YM all went scuba diving in Florida.) I certainly have sympathy for Margaret’s concern, but I don’t see how bringing down the ecclesiastical hammer on events such as this will do anything to solve the problem.
So, assuming that this is privately funded, that is will not create individual hardships, and that similar activities are made available to both boys and girls, let ‘em have at it! In fact, I see nothing that should stop these folks from going even if the bishop is opposed. In that case, they should instead just go as a group of friends and parents rather than as youth in a particular ward.
Comment by Randy B. — April 8, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Fifteen dollars for the placement of a flag? I would speak privately with the YM leader first.
Comment by Justin — April 8, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
I’m less jazzed about the social pressure that may come to bear on ward members to so employ the boys. Still, if they’re raising the money privately, there doesn’t seem to be anything per se wrong about it, or at least not anything so per se wrong that I’d bother objecting. I would probably choose not to employ the boys’ various services but, not having either a lawn to mow or a yard in which to place a patriotic flag, that issue’s fairly moot with me right now.
Comment by Sam B. — April 8, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
Amen to #18.
Comment by Randy B. — April 8, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
Eric, I think you are getting at the source of friction between how BSA operates and how scouting in the church operates.
It is my understanding (and I ought to know, I’ve sat through enough monthly roundtables) that scout troops are run by the boys, with adults providing what is called shadow leadership. The adults see themselves as facilitators of the boys plans.
Do you really think that bishops and stake presidents have no say in what the boys plan, as long as they pay for it themselves? How do you deal with the published guidelines regarding travel, expense, etc.?
Comment by Mark IV — April 8, 2008 @ 4:55 pm
Good point, Randy B. It sounds like coordinating with the ward is just a hassle. The individuals taking the lead on this should just coordinate privately with fathers and their sons, then no one can complain about anything.
Comment by Eric Russell — April 8, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
#9 Ditto!!
Every year it’s the boys that get to do ‘fun’ stuff (High Adventure, raft trip, etc.) and all the girls get is a week at girls camp.
I guess we have to do this to help more young men stay active, so that more young men can go on missions, so that more people will convert, so that more tithes and offerings will come in, so that we can spend more on the boys activities… 8-(
Comment by ed42 — April 8, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
If church funds are not involved, take the kids to the space station orbiting the earth!
Comment by Kent — April 8, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Mark (23),
But now you’re asking a different question–I’m not sure how I’d react as Bishop. But as un-YM-related attender of Ward conference, I don’t see where the private comment to the Bishop fits in.
Comment by Sam B. — April 8, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
My older boys had a wonderful experience at Philmont. They both paid for it themselves and they did not go with a LDS Troop. I wish all the youth (girls can go to Philmont) who wanted the experience of Philmont would get it. However part of the experience is the joy and satisfaction of planning for and funding the trip themselves. I am all for humanitarian aid. This is also a big part of growing a good kid, but meaningful memories are good too.
Comment by JA Benson — April 8, 2008 @ 4:59 pm
Eric–if they can go anywhere they’d like to, I’m sure they’ll want to go to American Idol. That’s quite a message and a metaphor.
I’m sorry this is such an issue for me, but it is. I am a firm believer in doing things like taking my kids to Guatemala for a summer, living without furniture except for meager beds, eating tortillas and beans, and trying to learn Cakchiquel. I was raised that way. (Dad did it to us Blair kids, and most of us have never recovered, nor do we intend to.) I’m certain that some camps bring great bonding etc., but our profligate spending cannot be pleasing to the One who told the rich man to give away all he had and follow Him. There is such need in this world. $33,000. can do so much.
And it now time for me to take my son to his guitar lessons. I am hoping he’ll become a rock star.
Comment by Margaret Young — April 8, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
“How do you deal with the published guidelines regarding travel, expense, etc.”
You hope you have open-minded leaders open to local variation. If you don’t, you take the initiative on your own and do it outside the official structure of the church. When faced with that dilemma, I suspect some may become more flexible.
To be frank, I have no intention of allowing church bureaucracy to unduly limit what sort of activities my kids get to do. If I can’t do it in the system, I’ll go to plan B.
Comment by Randy B. — April 8, 2008 @ 5:02 pm
When I was a scout we had one big camp — we went to Camp Cherry Valley on Catalina Island. It was drivable from our ward in southern utah (except for the last 50 miles across the water from Long Beach, of course…). It was truly memorable, and surely my best scouting experience.
But…
$33,000?
C’mon. I have to think that for a fraction of the price of 22 plane tickets you could come up with something just as meaningful and memorable, and a bit closer to home.
Of course, the question here isn’t really “Is this an obscene amount of money for a church activity?,” which it clearly is, but “Is it my business to say something to the bishop?”
It would be very hard for me not to. Perhaps an appropriate way to phrase it would be “Bishop, I know this falls outside of my direct church stewardship, but I feel that I would be remiss if I didn’t voice my personal opinion that spending that amount on a Scout activity is really excessive.”
And can you imagine how knowledge of such a trip would be received elsewhere in the church? Imagine one of these scouts years later telling his Guatemalan or Ghanaian mission companion about what HIS quorum did for summer camp.
Comment by Jeremy — April 8, 2008 @ 5:03 pm
Will this $33,000 result in higher activity rates amongst them as young adults? Where are the tangible gains here? This is just a silly waste of money.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
I would amen this big time, if ONLY there were a similar extra-church-funds mechanism for getting girls to do fun things too. Believe me, as a young woman looking at the bulletin boards in the church building with pictures of rock climbing, skiing, etc, etc (while we were doing cross-stitch or some such), I didn’t magically feel less jealous simply because of there mere technicality that it wasn’t church funds. “Church funds” is just Enron accounting tricks as far as the YM/YW lack of equality is concerned.
I echo big concern about ward members feeling social pressure to subscribe to $15 flags and whatnot. Again, blurring the “it’s not church funds!!” line of defense.
Comment by sister blah 2 — April 8, 2008 @ 5:16 pm
$15 to stick a flag in someone yard? That’s not fundraising, that is emotional extortion by guilt/obligation. That’s a worse lesson than just footing the bill in entirety and then reminding the boys at every possible opportunity how thankful for and humbled they should be at other’s generosity.
At least that way they might remember to say thank you to the members who feed them when they are on their missions.
Comment by MAC — April 8, 2008 @ 5:16 pm
Also, the fact remains that you’re “calling on” members of the ward to support all this fundraising. Maybe it’s a 100% well-to-do ward, but if not, there might be people for whom it will hurt to have someone else mow their lawn for $120/mo. Also, that’s a pretty steep price for the flag service, if you ask me (wards I’ve been in before have done it for much less). And if you’re in a Utah ward where there are lots of members on every street, there’s a certain amount of social pressure to shell out for the flags. In my stake, our SP insisted that if scouts did the flag service, they offer it to EVERYBODY in the ward without a fee, and then collect donations, because he didn’t want a star-bellied-sneech thing going on.
My point is, sure you can say the money is being raised “privately,” but it’s still coming from somewhere, mostly members of the ward — whether they need a lawn boy or flag service or not.
Comment by Jeremy — April 8, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
“Where are the tangible gains here? This is just a silly waste of money.”
I don’t know anything about Philmont. So as to this particular activity, I can’t say. Others seem to have found it enormously valuable.
I will say that if I as a parent were as convinced about the value of a given activity as those folks are about Philmont, I would not hesistate to pursue it, even if it came with a fairly significant price tag, and even if the bishop was opposed.
That said, I’m all in favor of making reasoned judgments and examining opportunity costs. If there were a comparable though perhaps not quite as nice alternative at a lower costs, I would be happy to consider it. But if I determine that there is unique value in a given activity, no bishop is going to stop me.
Any other approach would leave me despondent about the YW activities our girls will likely be left with then they become teenagers.
Comment by Randy B. — April 8, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
Hey, if the church doesn’t want to sponsor scouting, then contact the local Rotary club and they will be happy to sponsor you. It isn’t the church’s money, and all of the leaders are doing right by the scouting organization. Raising their own funds is not taking any money from other activities, so why cry over money that is earned?
It may seem excessive to some how much we spend on buildings such as chapels and temples when we could be doing so much more for humanitarian programs.
Comment by Kent — April 8, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
Randy (30), there are legitimate reasons for the Church guidelines and I respect them–they come from long, hard, sometimes disasterous experience. Plan B is certianly an option for a family (as illustrated by Magraret (29). Just don’t expect everyone to be subjected to plan A if is against Church Policy.
Comment by Darrell — April 8, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
I have signifigant exp with philmont and large long expensive trips in YM’s. They are worth it. I will return and report on this after dinner.
Comment by bbell — April 8, 2008 @ 5:29 pm
“I would amen this big time, if ONLY there were a similar extra-church-funds mechanism for getting girls to do fun things too.”
Individual initiative goes a long way in the church. How far you can go will depend to some degree on local leadership. But if YW leaders took the initiative, with nothing more than the support of their husbands and the parents of the YW, they could do far more than they do now. Inertia and low expectations seem to be the primary obstacles. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
Comment by Randy B. — April 8, 2008 @ 5:30 pm
If there are guidelines against over-the-weekend activities, no knows about it. There’s a whole branch at Philmont that supports its participants.
Comment by Eric Russell — April 8, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
Just for the record, girls _do_ have the same opportunities to raise funds as boys do, and are welcome to go to camps besides girls camp. In the last ward we lived in, the Nonny Spouse and I were both in the Youth program. The young men helped the young women put the flags in the yard every flag-day, and got the lion’s share of the money.
There _are_ limits on the types and kinds of fundraising they can do, but they’re welcome to raise as much non-tithing money as they can, I believe.
The fundraising plan as disclosed does sound a bit “pie-in-the-sky” and manipulative to me. That being said, Philmont is the kind of experience that Margaret described here:
“I am a firm believer in doing things like taking my kids to Guatemala for a summer, living without furniture except for meager beds, eating tortillas and beans, and trying to learn Cakchiquel.”
except without Guatemala and Cakchiquel. And that you carry everything in with you on your back for your 50-120 mile hike over 10 days in the wilderness. This isn’t just some regular ol’ scout camp, it’s like the über-scout camp of all scout camps.
All that being said, though I’m currently involved as a scout leader, I don’t have much of a testimony of scouting, honestly. However, at a recent scout activity I was talking with a boy’s inactive father who’s trying to turn his life around after getting involved in drugs and partying and general not keeping his head on straight, even though he and his wife had a few kids. He talked about how great his couple of trips to Philmont were, and it was pretty clear that his scouting experience was something that he thought of as being foundational in pointing him in “the right way.” I guess what I’m trying to say is even though scouting doesn’t do much for me, there are some people that it really helps out and that really like it. Everybody’s gotta find those things that help point them in the right direction, I suppose.
$30,000 seems like a lot, but it’s akin to $1,000 a person, given the numbers above. It seems like that’s probably akin to what somebody might pay for a year of guitar lessons here in Utah County if they were taking one lesson a week at around $20 a lesson, which is what I paid my beginning guitar teacher.
I personally, as a leader, would try and duck out of this one. And I, personally, as a leader, would try and find cheaper, better experiences closer to home. But, if somebody’s that gung-ho about it and thinks they can raise the funds, then they’re welcome to do it, as long as it’s within the guidelines.
Lastly:
“2. The current guidelines say that youth activities shouldn’t extend over a weekend, and that we shouldn’t sponsor events that require the youth to be gone from the ward over the Sabbath.”
I don’t know of any scout camp outside of utah the intermountain west that might meet that requirement. We regularly had to camp over sunday at every scout camp I ever went to growing up in “the mission field.”
So, if that’s really a guideline, then I’d kibosh the activity as a leader.
Comment by A. Nonny Mouse — April 8, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
“Just don’t expect everyone to be subjected to plan A if is against Church Policy.”
I don’t expect anyone to be “subjected” to any plan. If someone doesn’t want to participate in plan A, whether that’s going to Philmont or something else, they shouldn’t.
Church guidelines often make sense in one situation but not in another. SPs and even Bishops are given a fair amount of authority to make local adjustments and grant exceptions to general guidelines like those at issue here. These guildelines are not infalliable nor are they impervious to change.
Comment by Randy B. — April 8, 2008 @ 5:40 pm
I lived in a stake where there were two clearly rich wards, and clearly poor ward (geographical boundaries do that sometimes). The very wealthy former stake president used to fly the priests from his ward in his plane to a nearby city to buy Krispy Kremes as a midweek activity. I was good friends with one of those priests and he told me about it. They loved it, they had a great time, grew in friendship, respect for each other, and observed a great male role model (the former stake president was a very kind generous man). All of those things are fabulous benefits, but at what cost? I’m sure you can imagine how the other boys, especially the ones from the poorer wards felt when those priests casually spoke those adventures in seminary.
These sorts of extravagant gestures can be really great for the people who benefit from them, I’m not discounting that. They do, however, illustrate the stark differences between the haves, and the have-nots, whether the have-nots are the YW from the same ward, the poor kids from the other side of town, or even the inactive boy who just never heard about it.
I’d also like to point out that, from the point of view of a youth, the line between ward-funded, and self-funded is irrelevant, if it can be called a ‘teacher’s quorum activity’ (or similar) then it is ‘church sponsored.’
Comment by Starfoxy — April 8, 2008 @ 5:40 pm
Right there in ward council I would say:
“Ha! Hand out the pamphlets to the families and if they think it would be great for their kids, let them figure out how to raise the money. This is a ward budget meeting and if you think this is going to be privately funded, discuss it at scouts, not here. Also, find a comprable experience for the YW and arrange for their private funds, too!”
And that, my friends, is why I am not invited to ward council.
If this got past one ward coucil, I would meet with the bishop and give him information on how and where to donate this money to pay tution for African students. $100 pays for one African kid to school for one year. How many years of school could you pay for with the money allotted for air fare? Surely the obscenity would sink in….
Comment by ESO — April 8, 2008 @ 5:40 pm
Word up ESO.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
Not to be too snarky, Nonny Mouse, but in my mind an endorsement from a guy who, though he had a profound experience at a particular scout camp, nonetheless got involved in drugs and partying, serves to generally call into question whether the profundity of such experience translates reliably into lifestyle choices…
Comment by Jeremy — April 8, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
Sigh, so much Boy Scout hate.
First of all Boy Scout Camp is a traditional experience and very worthwhile. It’s usually around a week long, occasionally going over Sunday (if it’s close you can come back Saturday) and that seems fine, and I don’t think the guidelines were meant to end Boy Scout Camp- otherwise why does the Church sponsor Boy Scout troops?
Philmont should certainly not be an common thing, as there are plenty of good local Boy Scout Camps.
However, Philmont can provide a once in a lifetime experience, and if the money is raised outside of the church in a proper manner, and if the trip is planned with wise frugality then I think such an activity should be allowed.
That said, the price is a little worrisome to me. Is it necessary to fly? Are there any other, cheaper yet still safe means of transportation?
The fund raising method worries me even more. This seems to be organized directly around raising money from the ward. Although this may be driven by the fact that it’s in Utah and so everybody is in the Ward- are non-members also solicited for the flag service?
When I was a Boy Scout in Washington State, our yearly fundraiser was for us to go around collecting people’s Christmas Trees on the 1st Saturday in January.
We’d advertise through out our assigned area (assigned by the Boy Scout Counsel) the week before Christmas. Then on the selected day we’d all get together at the Scoutmaster’s house along with everybody who had a pickup truck that we could strong arm into coming. We’d drive around all day, loading up with Christmas trees (people were asked to donate with a check attached to the tree- we suggested 5 dollars a tree), when we got the truck full we’d take them back to the Scoutmaster’s where they got feed into the chipper. We then sold the mulch for 50 cents or something a bag. The vast majority of our donations came from non-members who wanted somebody to haul their tree away.
How many hours each boy worked was recorded. After the deductions for renting the chipper, and 10% that went to the general Troop fund (often used to help less prosperous families out), the rest was divided among each boy proportionate to the number of hours he worked and then held in trust by the Troop for expenditures on Boy Scout stuff- including Scout Camp (that was the big one) but also to buy sleeping bags and Backpacks, and tents, and stoves, and other scouting equipment.
Now is there anybody here who would object to that kind of system?
I swear, Utah must be giving Boy Scouts a bad name or something, cause real Boy Scouts is great.
As for the young women- are you saying they aren’t allowed to do private fund raising? That’s crazy! Why aren’t they? I mean, I guess it’s harder cause they don’t have a non-Church affiliated organization to draw on like they would if the Girl Scouts were the YW program or something. (Both my sisters did girl scouts, and my mother used to be real into it- but she tells me she thinks now that the Church was wise to stay out it- she prefers the Church YW program). I mean Boy Scout Counsels often have an already established method of fund raising- with the YW I guess you’d have to come up with something that the Bishop will feel comfortable agreeing to.
With Boy Scouts it’s a little easier on the Bishop because he’s just accepting an already establish means of fund raising that has the Boy Scout stamp of approval already, but for YW fund raising the responsibility falls entirely on him.
Still, I’d hope that if the YW had something planned that they wanted to do that required a fund raiser that the Bishop would work with them to find and acceptable method. If a Bishop isn’t then I think that’s grounds to talk to the Stake President.
Comment by Cicero — April 8, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
BTW, this thread would have to veer in a certain direction only a few degrees before I would feel empowered to launch into a tirade against wards quasi-endorsing sending kids to EFY…
Comment by Jeremy — April 8, 2008 @ 5:50 pm
Maybe I don’t understand how ward budgets work but if they are going to raise the funds themselves, and even the kids whose parents can’t afford it, can go, too, then what’s the problem? Why do you have to ask permission of the bishop? As long as its not coming from tithing funds or negatively affecting the funds for another activity, what’s wrong with it? And if the YWs wants to do something equally pricey but they fund it themselves, what’s wrong with that?
Comment by Lulubelle — April 8, 2008 @ 5:51 pm
Steve, why so antagonistic on this subject? Did you miss out on the class trip to Disneyland?
(Your comment #1 reminds me of JDC - BAN HIM! BAN HIM!)
Comment by FHL — April 8, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
Actually, Jeremy, that’s not a bad idea, even if you’re against it. I think the discussion would be a little less slanted if gender weren’t involved.
EFY, youth conferences, pageants, pioneer treks. The church spends a lot of money and sponsors programs that cost a lot of money in order to provide activities for the youth. Should the church scrap it all and send the money to Africa? I don’t know.
Comment by Eric Russell — April 8, 2008 @ 6:01 pm
LOL, FHL. It’s not real antagonism, per se. It’s just a sense that this is a colossal waste of money, and if people have that kind of disposable income to throw around, there are probably a hundred other uses that would be more socially beneficial. This just smacks of conspicuous consumerism wrapped in the guise of the BSA, whose favored status within the Church is already something that barely passes the sniff test.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 6:03 pm
Randy, I would say that in such cases as this that there are those who are “subjected” to the plan A. There are the parents who cannot afford to cough up the money. There are the kids who feel the pressure to go, even though the activity really does not interest them (there are lots of YM who go to Mutual every week and hate it because they aren’t into scouting). There are the ward members who are “hit up” to make donations and feel the pressure to contribute because it is a “church” activity. Last, but not least, there is the bishop who should not be put into the uncomfortable position of wanting to stick to policy and may recognize that this is way overboard but also doesn’t want to be the bad guy.
In my opinion if these activities take place there should be a clear deliniation between the activity and the Church–an impossibility most of the time.
Comment by Darrell — April 8, 2008 @ 6:07 pm
My exp. I would say yes. Any Bishop worth his salt will support these kinds of activities. These trips go on all the time and are a part of our LDS culture
Any ward and stake with a functioning YM program goes on HA trips. Wards and stakes that do not are doing their YM a disservice and to be honest I would not live there. These trips are a key part of retaining YM in my EXP.
I have done 4 trips. 2 to Philmont and 2 to then Rockies for HA.
Usually they run about $750 out the door per person. Our current trip to Colorado will run $52,500 for 70 people. I think the $1100 cost is inflated by the airfare. I have never seen ward funds used for these trips. They are paid for by the families and by fundraisers.
Steve,
Have you ever worked in YM? Does your ward even have a YM program? $750 a a person for a week in the Rockies is dirt cheap.
I think there is some bias against males being exhibited in this thread. Why do male posters never bash the YW program in the bloggernaccle but many both male and esp female posters feel so free to bash the YM program? Remember that according to the Pew study the active members as adults are 56-44 female.
Comment by bbell — April 8, 2008 @ 6:11 pm
Please, Tom, don’t say anything. please please please …
whew!!
~
Comment by Thomas Parkin — April 8, 2008 @ 6:18 pm
Margaret, I’m well enough off that I can send my kids on expensive educational trips to Europe. Will that turn them into spoiled, entitled brats? Do I need to stop doing that and have them spend all their free time sewing clothes for orphans? I think service is important, but I don’t think limiting the youth activities to service projects only is necessary or healthy.
Comment by E — April 8, 2008 @ 6:21 pm
bbell, I will not support this kind of activity. Apparently that means you don’t think I’m “worth my salt.” Please come see me on Sunday, and bring your temple recommend.
Comment by bbell's bishop — April 8, 2008 @ 6:27 pm
bbell said: “These trips go on all the time and are a part of our LDS culture.”
You could say the same thing for many, many things in our church that I have little enthusiasm for.
Comment by Jeremy — April 8, 2008 @ 6:43 pm
My stake does the exact same high adventure trip in alternate years for YM and YW. It includes hiking 22 miles, white water rafting, and it costs $150 per person and includes travel to another country (Canada), but we are on the border.
This year, Girls camp costs $60 and Boy Scout Camp costs $275. As per church guidelines, the youth participated in the allowed ONE fundraiser–YW and YM working together. Did the YM work 4 times harder than the girls to get so much more of the money, do you suppose?
Comment by ESO — April 8, 2008 @ 6:49 pm
I’m against the activity, but for different reasons than some here.
To those who say it’s unfair to the YW, I say, why can’t they plan a similar activity? Why should the YM suffer because of the YW leaders lack of creativity? Aren’t the just as capable of fund-raising and manual labor?
To those who say it’s a waste of money, maybe so, but it’s the young men’s money to choose to do with as they see fit.
But, my concern is that members would feel obligated to pay for the over-priced services since it was sanctioned by the ward. If they are truly earning the money on the free-market, then good for them. But I don’t think they should be playing on the, “I’m a boy from your ward and this is what the ward is doing” line. So for that reason I’d be opposed to it, although whether I’d say something to the bishop depends on my position.
Or, if I were the bishop and were cruel, I’d say, “Yeah, sounds like a great idea” and then once they’ve earned the money, we’d have a fireside about how some many of our brothers and sisters are suffering all over the world, and then let them choose what to do with the money. But I wouldn’t be that cruel.
Comment by Mike L. — April 8, 2008 @ 6:50 pm
At least the flag program run by the scouts in my ward is only $25 for the year. I now feel like I’m getting a serious bargain. (Hopefully no one in my stake will read this thread and raise the rate…)
Comment by Zinka — April 8, 2008 @ 6:53 pm
Mike, it’s banned. No fund raising for church activities. Boys get away with it by saying it isn’t church, it’s scouts.
Well, if takes money, then no, they can’t. When I was in YW we were told the handbook said parents can’t be asked to pay, there can’t be any fund raising, and you have to do it off the church funds, which are very limited. Maybe some don’t follow the handbook, or it’s changed?
Comment by sister blah 2 — April 8, 2008 @ 7:02 pm
sister blah 2: The Handbook discourages fundraising (other than for camps) but leaves it in the hands of the bishop and stake president.
Comment by Darrell — April 8, 2008 @ 7:15 pm
Sorry, I’m not familiar with all the rules involved. I thought someone said earlier that both the YM and YM could raise money. My bad. But even so, then it’s the rules you have a problem with, not the activity. And if the rules make a distinction between scouts and church, then this certainly seems like it falls on the scouts side of the line, and therefore is within the rules. If this is unfair to the young women, then the rules should change. But my point is that we shouldn’t punish the young men because the rules restrict the young women from doing the same, whether those rules are good or not.
And, although I don’t know if the rules are good or not, I also want to point out that the young women can participate in activities through girl scouts or other organizations outside of church, and are free to raise money with their own over-priced services. The difference is that the church and boy scouts are affiliated, but as I said, I’m against the scouting program trying to use the influence of the ward to make members feel obligated to support an activity.
Comment by Mike L. — April 8, 2008 @ 7:21 pm
Mike L–I suggest that boys in boy scout uniforms actually are at a DISTINCT advantage in raising money over the girls from some local church in t-shirts who want to camp.
People give money to scouts they wouldn’t give to non-scouts. Nostalgia, patriotism, elderly disorientation, I don’t know, but I think the difference is real.
Comment by ESO — April 8, 2008 @ 7:30 pm
Mike–no need to say Sorry :-). Sounds like Darrell #64 has clarified the actual language from the handbook isn’t an outright ban for camps.
Comment by sister blah 2 — April 8, 2008 @ 7:33 pm
As a YM president, I can say that high adventure activities can be done on the cheap. We traveled 600 miles to Tennessee from Indiana last year for a 6 day 5 night whitewater rafting/hiking trip for $200 bucks a kid.
Even if we did eat a ton of hot dogs the kids had a blast and it stayed within budget with each of the boys contributing half of the cost.
$1000 a pop for a summer activity is so unnecessary especially when the money save could go towards the boys’ mission funds or on a trip like Margaret describes - One can get a round trip ticket to Mexico or Central America pretty cheap these days.
Comment by Andres — April 8, 2008 @ 7:37 pm
If you are invited to ward council and have a concern about something presented at ward council perhaps the appropriate place to bring it up is, oh I don’t known, ward council. Why make the bishop the referee right out of the gate?
On a side note, I call upon all those who would rather see the money go to Africa or some such similar place to immediately make a meaningful sacrifice in terms of their lifestyle and donate the money to a meaningful cause (I’m looking at you Steve Evans). Please then allow the rest of us and our kids to enjoy life a little despite the obvious moral deficiency that arises due to not spending summers living in the bush.
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 7:38 pm
“Private funding” is technically not allowed. *Approved* fundraising is (and the CHI has rules about fundraisers).
Just because it is of good report and praiseworthy means that it needs to be part of the YW program…
Comment by rowish — April 8, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
Mathew, I’m donating all my money to raising my family. Or is that cause not meaningful in your eyes?
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 7:46 pm
bbell - There are plenty of men who criticize the YW program, and the Activity Day program for girls. The percentages may show more women staying active, but for many fathers of YW, that statistic seems to be *in spite of* the YW program.
What are the girls in your ward doing while your boys are going to Colorado? Having a wedding dress fitting session?
Comment by rowish — April 8, 2008 @ 7:48 pm
I really dislike the idea of having families finance this out of their own pockets rather than having the boys work together to raise the money. Working together towards a significant goal is miles better than the individualistic every-boy-for-himself approach. The youth need more projects that require long-term group planning and goal setting, not less.
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 7:51 pm
Actually, in writing #65 I think I convinced myself to change my mind. I realized that this is the most important question: Why should the scout troop be restricted from doing something any other scout troop would be free to do, just because they are affiliated with the ward? (With the exception of any pre-understood rules such as no Sabbath stays). The young men shouldn’t be punished because they belong to a troop that is affiliated with the ward instead of another troop, and I say that as someone who chose to belong to a different troop than the one my ward sponsored, since the ward troop was lame at the time.
But as a bishop I’d give instruction that the scouts should not target the members’ homes, but the community in general, and that they should present themselves as scouts, not as the young men of the ward.
ESO, girl scouts have uniforms too, and tasty cookies. If the people in your community are more willing to support the boy scouts than the girl scouts, that’s an issue you should take up with your community, and not punish the boy scouts.
Comment by Mike L. — April 8, 2008 @ 7:52 pm
Steve,
Think of the children in Africa!
Then tell me if your family really needs all that household income you and your wife pull down.
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 7:58 pm
Matthew, so should we all give away all that we have until there is no one less fortunate than ourselves? That’s something I’ve pondered, but to avoid a threadjack I’ll just link to my post on the subject.
Comment by Mike L. — April 8, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
Mathew, I see that nuance is not lost on you. Let’s not get into who is the breadwinner and all that. It’s irrelevant.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
Mike L,
The point I really want to make is that if someone has a beef, they should bring it up in the ward council to which they were invited. Otherwise bishops might as well that meeting entirely as it obviously is failing to serve its purpose.
As for giving up all your worldly goods, if you think you should I won’t stand in your way. But keep it on the DL. Personally I try to do things so that my right hand doesn’t know what my left is doing. Of course that makes both typing and sex awkward.
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 8:11 pm
I’m not a scouter, but we did go to Philmont when I was a boy, and it was wonderful. But we went by bus, and I don’t think we spent a tenth of the per person cost of this trip.
One of the boys bought a copy of The Godfather at the bus station, and I read maybe the first hundred pages on the trip. That was an education in and of itself!
Comment by Kevin Barney — April 8, 2008 @ 8:12 pm
Mat, from what I’ve heard of the results obtained, your explanation re: left/right hands seems to fit.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
As someone who is StillConfused, what is the problem with this situation? Is it because private funds are being used? I can see it is a large amount of money but I am not sure why that is a bad thing, unless of course, the money is not available.
Comment by StillConfused — April 8, 2008 @ 8:14 pm
hy should the scout troop be restricted from doing something any other scout troop would be free to do, just because they are affiliated with the ward? (With the exception of any pre-understood rules such as no Sabbath stays). The young men shouldn’t be punished because they belong to a troop that is affiliated with the ward instead of another troop, and I say that as someone who chose to belong to a different troop than the one my ward sponsored, since the ward troop was lame at the time.
There’s no reason LDS wards can’t be like the rest … except that the sponsoring institution (the Church) has special and specific rules in place.
If your sons belonged to the ward troop, you’d understand…
Comment by rowish — April 8, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
StillConfused,
The problem is that a lot of money is being spent, and some are opposed to the spending of money on principle. Never mind that the money will go to feed the families of pilots, flight attendants, airport personnel, Philmont employees, manufacturers and distributors of camping equipment, etc, and that in return for this payment the boys will have the experience of a lifetime. Spending money is evil. Period.
Comment by Rob G — April 8, 2008 @ 8:21 pm
It never ceases to amaze me that those who are adamantly in favor of forced redistribution of wealth throw fits when the redistribution is voluntary and mutually beneficial.
Comment by Rob G — April 8, 2008 @ 8:24 pm
Our stake spends Saturday night on the lawn of a LDS Chapel in NM, attends church there on Sunday and go on our way to CO.
Really these trips are non-controversial and highly anticipated by boys and dads.
Comment by bbell — April 8, 2008 @ 8:25 pm
The youth in our ward seem to have a lot of trips they can go on, and it seems like a lot of them part of the cost has to be covered by the family. The cost of the next trip coming up is $250, which we might do for one kid. But we have three teenagers. Not gonna happen.
Comment by Susan M — April 8, 2008 @ 8:40 pm
Rob G, your trickle-down theory of lavish vacations is heartwarming. The Gipper is pleased.
Comment by The Gipper — April 8, 2008 @ 8:41 pm
#57–I recommend you rephrase, modifying your tone and deleting any mention of your high income. In a way, your sarcasm boils down the essential problem of the whole situation Mark B. is offering up for discussion. It’s really not about whether or not scouting is good, or whether that particular camp is good [it appears to be wonderful for many], but whether or not one set of kids should have particular privileges VIA THE CHURCH which another set will not have because they don’t have the same access to money. A lot of it is in the attitude. Certainly, pointing out with any measure of pride that one ward has more than another and hence can be more privileged than another is problematic. I believe we have made covenants which imply we will try to be more egalitarian than that.
I support educational trips to Europe, btw. Been there, done that, plan on doing that again in two years.
Comment by Margaret Young — April 8, 2008 @ 8:50 pm
For what it’s worth:
CHI, book 2, 1998, pp.279: Sabbath day observance - No Church-sponsored events such as games, practices, or travel or camping or hiking are to be scheduled on Sunday or travel to or from camps or youth conferences.
CHI, book 1, 2006, pp 160 - 161: a SP or bishop may authorize group fund-raising activities only when necessary to help pay for annual camps and equipment.
The fund-raising guidelines cover 2 pages which I won’t try to reproduce.
Comment by Alan L — April 8, 2008 @ 8:53 pm
I happen to be the scoutmaster of a poor ward outside of Nashville, where the troop is combined with the hispanic branch. For our outings, I insist that the boys raise their own money from non-church sources. As was mentioned earlier, there are many established pathways for scout fundraising. I don’t allow parents to fund their boys for two reasons: First, those who can’t afford it are conspicuously left out; and second, it is tremendously important for the boys to have the experience of raising their own money to fund their trips. We have regular fund-raising activities in the community, which is very supportive, and we keep track of which boys earn what. Those who don’t participate in the fundraising don’t go to camp. We use the ward scouting budget for food and gas, and usually we don’t have much left over. The ward has never complained at the system we’ve implemented, and it has served us well.
Comment by Rob G — April 8, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 7:38 pm
“Private funding” is technically not allowed. *Approved* fundraising is (and the CHI has rules about fundraisers).
As a Branch President with a new scouting program the YM’s Pres. and other local leaders opted to organize the troop outside of the church program. There were 12 non-members and 3 church members in the troop and our reasoning was not to limit the program or tie financial donations by non-member parents to the Church budget.
Our Stake Pres. gave us a choice and in retrospect our combined decision was heavily influenced by the YM’s Pres. who had great fund raising skills.
The troop flourished for a while but when the YM Pres. moved, there was no accounting for the money which was raised. No one to this day knows who received the money once the troop was disbanded. I’m not sure why the Boy Scouts of America allow local leaders to run off with the funds instead of keeping them with the troop. In the financial world this is clearly embezzlement. There are no such issues with Church sponsored troops as all funds are held in a Church account.
If local Church leaders can be prosecuted and face disciplinary action and/or arrest for ward accounting irregularities and fraud then local LDS Scout leaders should be held to the same standard.
Comment by live one — April 8, 2008 @ 9:05 pm
Just starting to read the comments, but Ardis . . . Your comment in #2 (”whether I had a nap before church”) is priceless - and far too true far too often.
Comment by Ray — April 8, 2008 @ 9:17 pm
live one (#93),
I didn’t make the comment which you attribute to me.
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 9:19 pm
The details in #14 just changed the whole nature of the discussion for me. I’ll keep reading and see if there is more info coming.
Comment by Ray — April 8, 2008 @ 9:21 pm
In my opinion, this should have never been brought up in ward council to begin with. If 12 scouts decide they want to go to Philmont, then they need to each talk to their parents about how to make it happen. No money should come out of the ward fund whatsoever.
Philmont isn’t really like a regular scount camp where the whole troup goes. It’s not a troup activity. It should all be handled individually.
Comment by Jennifer in GA — April 8, 2008 @ 9:29 pm
They said they are rasing the money privately, why would this have anything to do with the YW? that means the money is not coming from the Church Budget. I wouldn’t get involved. I say if the YM president has the money, or can get the money, rock on.
Comment by Matt W. — April 8, 2008 @ 9:41 pm
#82: I understand that there may be specific, pre-defined rules in place for LDS church-sponsored boy scout troops, such as the rule for no trips on Sunday. From what I’ve read it doesn’t seem like there are rules preventing fundraising by the troop to pay for a camping trip (even an expensive one).
But as for sabbath camping, you might be right. I must have missed the 12-day detail in the original post. Still, based on some of the comments it seems they would feel the same way even if the trip excluded the Sabbath, based only on the cost. That viewpoint is mainly what I’m responding to.
#78: I agree that the ward council itself would have been the better place to bring it up. And for the record, I didn’t say I wanted to give up all my stuff, just that I’ve pondered the issue.
#90: I agree with your approach completely.
Comment by Mike L. — April 8, 2008 @ 9:42 pm
I think that the Young Women should be able to raise money too. I propose the following activity: At about mid-day on each patriotic holiday, visit the homes that were visited by the scouts that morning, knock on the door and say something like, “That’s a real nice flag you got there on your lawn. It would be a shame if something were to, you know, happen to it. You should consider hiring some of us girls in the ward to watch it for you. Otherwise, you never know what kind of desecration might occur. And you wouldn’t want that, would you?”
Comment by gst — April 8, 2008 @ 9:46 pm
I am adamantly opposed to the financing of this trip - not to the trip itself. I don’t like the cost at all, for the same reason Margaret and others have given. The cost is exorbitant and spending it in this way is selfish. That’s just my take.
However, it is the financing plan that kills it for me. The guidelines are CRYSTAL CLEAR on one thing that nobody has mentioned yet: The ward roster is NOT to used for ANY purpose other than to have contact info for members when needed. This is a clear case where members are being targeted for money *specifically* because they are members. In my Ohio ward, this plan would necessitate taking a ward roster and contacting members directly from that roster to make the solicitations.
In my mind, there is no gray whatsoever in this policy - and it is an absolutely necessary and critical policy. Perhaps it gets butchered regularly, but that doesn’t change its genius and importance.
If they can raise the funds as outlined by Rob G. in #92 (which I think is brilliant), all I can say is, “That’s their choice, even if I feel it is extravagant.” As planned, ain’t no way I’d support it, and I certainly would express my concerns to the YM Pres. and Bishop privately - or in open Ward Council if asked or if discussion was requested by the Bishop.
Comment by Ray — April 8, 2008 @ 9:47 pm
Man, I misreferenced another comment. I meant Rob’s #90.
Comment by Ray — April 8, 2008 @ 9:48 pm
Ray… this Flag thing is obviously in Utah (I see it all the time when I’m down there on July 4th).
That means that the Ward boundaries and membership is essentially the same as the Scout Troop Fundraising boundaries.
I feel the same way you do, but I also recognize that being in Utah in a heavily Mormon neighborhood can make differentiating between ward membership lists and neighborhood boundaries largely theoretical.
It just makes me glad I wasn’t in Utah for my Scouting experience.
By the way, I still have gotten a response to the real life fundraising program I experienced in Boy Scouts (Post #48). I’d really like to know if people here would have problems with that form of fundraising?
Is it really the method of fundraising that has people worried (like Ray) or are most people just of the opinion that Boy Scouts isn’t worth the money?
Comment by Cicero — April 8, 2008 @ 9:57 pm
Alternative ways that these scouts could raise the money:
Cook and distribute meth (One upside is that it presumably doesn’t involve selling to members. Also, they earn the Chemistry merit badge.)
As long as you have a van and you’re in New Mexico, pick up some illegals in the desert and give them a lift to Albuquerque for $500 a head.
Don your uniforms and work the security detail for the local mildly retarded rap impressario (if you’re in Provo, this guy).
I’m just trying to think outside of the box (while still respecting the box).
Comment by gst — April 8, 2008 @ 10:07 pm
gst, are you gunning for another Niblet nomination already? That’s brilliant.
Comment by Ray — April 8, 2008 @ 10:11 pm
I’m not much of a scouter… I think I might have been a tenderfoot once. In a past life. However, I don’t see what the big deal is. if the boys can raise it, then the money should be theirs to use as they see fit. If YW groups aren’t allowed fund-raisers than there is certainly an inequitable situation. However, putting the kibosh on the YM’s activity for that reason is like trying to solve discrimination against the blind by putting out everyone’s eyes.
Comment by Latter-day Guy — April 8, 2008 @ 10:24 pm
Ray, it’s not about the recognition or the money. I do it for the love of the game.
Comment by gst — April 8, 2008 @ 10:25 pm
This discussion has gotten a little bit silly in its polarity: two choices, spend $33k to save our boys from the streets, or give all our money to starving kids in Africa.
Here’s the thing: a few people have spoken fervently about having formative experiences at Philmont. But just because some people have those experiences at those places, I’m not convinced that the youth couldn’t have just as meaningful experiences elsewhere for less than $33k. And by “meaningful” I’m not limiting myself to the caricatures given here. It’s possible to be wary of the $33K pricetag without insisting that the same amount be raised at sent to an orphanage somewhere. C’mon people.
And another thing. Think about it: some of you are saying “why don’t the YW just do a huge fundraiser, too?” In the scenario give here, that fundraising is happening primarily within the ward (and here in Utah, that’s more or less what you’re stuck with, because EVERY ward has YM doing fundraisers). If you’re saying it would be no big deal for the people in your ward to come up with $66,000 in a year, even if they’re getting mowed lawns and flags on the curb in exchange, you live in a very different kind of ward than I do.
Comment by Jeremy — April 8, 2008 @ 10:28 pm
“whether or not one set of kids should have particular privileges VIA THE CHURCH which another set will not have because they don’t have the same access to money.”
Margaret,
There is a certain irony in a BYU faculty member writing this. How can you justify the church’s second biggest expenditure if it disporportionally benefits those with access to money?
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
“if the boys can raise it, then the money should be theirs to use as they see fit.”
I’m with ya there.
$33k could buy something like 100 Xbox 360s, or 1500 lap dances.
*kind nudge*
(Iow - there is naturally some limit on what they choose to spend there money on, and the question revolves around where that limit is.)
~
Comment by Thomas Parkin — April 8, 2008 @ 10:44 pm
Mat, that’s cheap obfuscation. This is a “you make the call” about a given scenario, not about an entirely different scenario regarding BYU. The church’s expenditures at BYU may indeed pose certain problems, but why should Margaret, of all people, be required to solve your cooked and entirely alien hypothetical in order to give an answer to the questions posed in the post? Ridiculous.
Comment by Steve Evans — April 8, 2008 @ 10:45 pm
A few random thoughts:
I, Mark B., am not Mark Brown, although my great-grandmother’s maiden name was Brown.
Ardis is not the only person on this blog who uses “sex” when describing persons and “gender” when talking about grammar. I’m sick to death of people who are afraid to say “sex.”
Sex Sex Sex Sex Sex
Finally, I don’t see any correlation (or causation) between lots of “circuses” for the youth and meaningful activity in the church as adults. Until someone shows me some causal links, I’d say spend the time and money elsewhere.
Comment by Mark B. — April 8, 2008 @ 10:46 pm
Mathew said:
“There is a certain irony in a BYU faculty member writing this. How can you justify the church’s second biggest expenditure if it disporportionally benefits those with access to money?”
This comparison would make sense if the poor kids that have really good fire-starting skills get scholarships to Philmont.
Also, there’s a certain irony in the fact that what these boys are spending for a week at scout camp would pay for about 75% of one semester of full-time tuition at BYU…
Indeed, the reason BYU is the church’s second biggest expenditure is precisely because its tuition costs are outrageously low in comparison to other colleges.
Comment by Jeremy — April 8, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
Well, since women don’t have “regularly scheduled PPI’s”, the whole speak-with-it-with-the-bishop-after-church-in-a-PPI thing is impossible/irrelevant.
And, being just 6-months-new in the ward, I would certainly want to know (a) if this is something that happens every year, every other year, every four years, etc., and whether the budget numbers are realistic based on past experience; and (b) whether the YW have ever had the opportunity to do something similar (including, but not limited to, letting them know that a Philmont experience is available to them if they don’t do it as part of an LDS troop and/or no current YW leaders are interested in outdoor high adventure activities).
Oh, and I suppose I’d also want to know what activities the Scouts are planning to do in order to prepare themselves for the wilderness camping/hiking experience. You don’t just jump up from the Wii and run out to the desert the next day. Surely, there will be weekend hiking, camping, rafting, first aid and other survival training experiences prior to the big NM trip. How will those be paid for?
Comment by LRC — April 8, 2008 @ 10:56 pm
Scout camp is cool. It’s not $33,000 worth of cool.
Our stake is very clear about the YM only having one fundraiser a year, regardless of its success. (The YW are limited to one as well.) That would have to be one heck of a single fundraiser.
Comment by Jami — April 8, 2008 @ 10:57 pm
Thomas,
Fair point about the XBoxes. (Lap dances for most scouts would be felonious.)
Honestly, if the boys wanted to use the money to go to Disney World, I wouldn’t have a problem either. I just hope that such a situation would not devolve into an experience from my childhood, in which my mom said, “Well, I can’t make you all happy, but I can make you all equally unhappy! I do think that something should be done about YW’s funding opportunities, but I don’t think that the issue is solved by penalizing the YM group.
Comment by Latter-day Guy — April 8, 2008 @ 10:58 pm
(Umm… close quotes after ‘unhappy’.)
Comment by Latter-day Guy — April 8, 2008 @ 10:59 pm
Steve,
Margaret obviously isn’t required to reply to my (valid) question, but I hope she will because she is a smart person who makes interesting points–which makes me want to know if she sees a meaningful distinction.
The question itself is perfectly valid as Margaret herself framed the question as “not about whether scouting is good . . . but whether or not one set of kids should have particular privileges VIA THE CHURCH which another set will not have because they don’t have the same access to money.” I’m obviously skeptical of that claim and think it might, in fact, really be about whether scouting, or whatever other program you are personally hostile towards, is good. I applaud, however, the general sentiment behind Margaret’s statement (despite being a BYU grad myself(where I had an outstanding Shakespeare course taught by Margaret’s husband)and being one of those disproportionally benefited by church programs thanks largely to geography and access to money).
Comment by Mathew — April 8, 2008 @ 11:06 pm
This is one of those conversations that highlights the differences between the church in the USA and other places. We have no church scouting, thank goodness, and it’s unthinkable that we would have such an expensive church youth activity. And no, our youth are not languishing in inactivity at any higher rate than anyone else.
And the flag raising thing blows my mind. Boy Scouts charging money to put up a flag? What do they charge for helping old ladies cross the street? Maybe the EQ could raise money by charging an annual fee for going to members’ homes once a month with a message and helping them with anything they need.
Comment by Norbert — April 8, 2008 @ 11:40 pm
I’m from a corner of Zion where that price tag would cause jaws to drop. (At least it did mine.) I am another who doesn’t have a testimony of scouting or of camping, for that matter, so I’m going to set that issue completely aside. The issue that troubles me more is the pressure on ward members to pitch in on the fundraiser. It’s a little misleading to call that “raising the money privately.” (I hate to use the word “extortion,” but you know.)
BTW and FWIW, in my ward, the flag thing is $25 for the whole year; the YM and YW share equally in the proceeds and in the setup/take-down responsibilities.
Comment by Cathy — April 8, 2008 @ 11:51 pm
#12. Sam B, I agree. I’ve driven through Fillmore, and it sure wasn’t worth $33,000.
Private jets for Krispy Kremes, $25 flag service. Starfoxy and Kinza, do we all live in the same stake in sauerkraut city?
Comment by Clair — April 9, 2008 @ 12:05 am
What Norbert says about international youth rings true to me. We had many great father-and-son’s camps when I was a kid. Total cost for the whole group: $100. I suggest the bishop shows the Fasting Offering receipts to the YM leaders to demonstrate what an obscene amount of money they are intending to spend.
Minor threadjack:
What happens to my standing in the neighbourhood if a) I tell the Scouts to get lost, I can stick my own flag in the lawn, or b) I don’t fly a flag at all?
Comment by Ronan — April 9, 2008 @ 1:37 am
Why is it now that every fun activity has to cost money? I remember the best YM activities were extremely low budget but very high in imagination, organisation and fun! There is absolutely no need to spend $33,000 dollars on this.
Even if this is private money I would deem it unreliable and getting kids’ hopes up! The whole travel to a different country thing in our “health and safety” era is a bomb waiting to explode if you want to take youth to a different country!
Comment by John Deacon — April 9, 2008 @ 2:52 am
Given all the mountains and rivers on public land in the US, why pay to hike/sleep next to one?
With YM leaders ready to pay $33,000 to go camping as it is, I say they should challenge the soft bigotry of low expectations by chipping in a few bucks and going for Everest. Now that would be a big-ticket life-changing experience to crow about for ages while simultaneously lifting the sherpas out of their third world misery, however briefly.
Clearly, the quadrature of the circle is to be found in my solution.
Comment by Peter LLC — April 9, 2008 @ 3:09 am
A few points:
1. The boys could have a similar experience for less money–it would just take a lot more planning by the leaders and boys themselves.
2. There are local camps in every council just to give all scouts good camping experiences. I know that they are not equal to Philmont, but I wonder if the extra money is worth the extra experience.
3. There is nothing keeping any local boy from going to Philmont on his own or his parents’ dime.
4. As a former counselor at a high-priced scout camp, I was appalled at the way that this camp was looked upon as money maker for the local council. We were instructed to try and get as many boys to participate in the money-making high adventure activities as possible. I know that Philmont is different–it is a money maker for scout headquarters. I believe in the scouting program, I just don’t have much of a testimony of professional scouting. I don’t think that these expensive camps are essential for all young men’s formative progression.
5. I think that this type of activity sets a precedent for boys that great experiences must cost a lot of money. What about provident living? If we can only keep kids active through high-priced activities like this, then we have serious problems in the church.
–gets off his soap-box and exhales.
Comment by Joel — April 9, 2008 @ 6:55 am
As a non-eagle scout, but Order of the Arrow inductee (I never did a darn thing with after being inducted…), let me just say this: I don’ think scouting is all that and a bag of chips.
I had fun, yes. I learned a lot, yes. But the YM can learn most of the skills just as well without the official BSA program if the church wants to just make the Duty to God program a bit larger. They could expand it for Young Women as well. I know we’ll likely never see campouts for both YM/YW at the same time (and with good reason, I rather suspect–I know what I would have done on those campouts! You’d have to keep the locations of the two camps very much secret from both parties, and good luck with that!), but identical programs is not such a stretch. Besides, it would probably be a good idea for the young men to lean how to sew and do knitting and cross-stitch (wait a minute..).
In fact I’d rather see that than anything else, but the church certainly won’t see a weakening of ties with the BSA under President Monson! We could see, however, a rather strong expansion of the YW program’s similarity to the scouting program (which I would rather like, even though I don’t have any daughters). If there is anything I think that young women need more, its self-respect and a strong sense of self-identity and a sense that they are loved and respected by their fathers and Heavenly Father. Activities outside the normal where they get to learn some of the more interesting stuff are probably some of the best things that we as a culture could offer them. I wish I had a daughter to teach these things to. Alas, I have but four sons…
…and my wife, she wishes we had a daughter too! We love our boys, don’t get me wrong, but there are times when a little girl would be very nice. Oh well.
Oh well.
Comment by benjamin o — April 9, 2008 @ 6:56 am
We do need to note there are separate budget lines for YM and Scouts. They come from different “pots”. I don’t see what the big deal is if the scouts are able to raise the money or pay for the trip themselves.
I will say the Church and Scouts seem to be at odds with fundraising. The Church sees fundraising as an opportunity for service regardless of how much money is made. Scouts only real concern with fundraising is how much money you bring in.
By the way, how much does EFY cost these days?
Comment by Tim J. — April 9, 2008 @ 7:01 am
Looks like EFY runs between $400 and $500.
Comment by Tim J. — April 9, 2008 @ 7:11 am
Mike L–we are talking about the Church Youth program, not boy scouts Vs. Girl Scouts. This is Boy Scouts essentially competing for the same pot of money as girls in street clothes who want to go to some no name camp. The Boy Scouts would obviously get much more support door to door, not to mention from institutions, such as roatry, etc. That is why they continue to have extravagant activities as compared to YW.
Why is it that we only teach modesty of dress? This trip is in no way MODEST.
Comment by ESO — April 9, 2008 @ 7:18 am
I’m sorry if this comment was made previously, I haven’t read every post but…if the funding for this trip will come from private fundraisers why is it even part of the presentation to the council? Certainly the activity should be pulblicized but the ward will have nothing to do with the funding, so why bring it up? Unless, of course, the YM president is setting the stage for a last minute bail-out, which would never happen. If the activity and its relative funding vehicle do not conflict with church policy then let it happen.
Comment by lamonte — April 9, 2008 @ 7:26 am
ESO,
The YW in our ward consistently out fundraise our scouts year in and year out. If they want to make money for a trip there is absolutely nothing stopping them.
I believe the Church discourages (forbids?) door-to-door sales for fundraising. They want it to be service-oriented.
Comment by Tim J. — April 9, 2008 @ 7:29 am
Maybe I missed it, but I don’t think you said where this scout troop is located. Unless they’re in Alaska or New England, I don’t understand why the idea of air travel would even come up, except as a deliberate extravagance. Even if they’re coming from Boston, I would look long and hard at a charted bus before I would even think about flying.
Comment by Left Field — April 9, 2008 @ 7:51 am
Things cost money, and in some well-off, few-child communities they cost more than in others. This week I’m turning in $130 per boy for 5 days of cub scout day camp. When I lived in Michigan, where three- and four-child families were common enough, day camp cost half that. There, the ward budget paid for day camp. Here, families are to pay for their own boys, and if they can’t afford it, then they will be helped from the ward budget. No one ever asks for that help, though; they just choose to do without.
Looking at the ward budget in ward council a couple months ago, I was astonished at how low it was; the tithing of any two people in the room would have covered it. The “send the money to Africa” thing is already being done by every tithe-payer in our ward.
I don’t have any good answers. Even in a mostly well-off ward, there are people who struggle financially and are excluded by expensive activities. Yet, something also seems out of balance if church activities are always impoverished compared to everything else in most ward members’ lives.
Comment by John Mansfield — April 9, 2008 @ 7:53 am
Ronan #120: You’d be viewed as a cheap bastard.
And an unpatriotic one, at that.
The big fundraiser in our stake used to be lawn aeration. My lawn is fine, thank you, but you were still pressured to pay $40 for them to leave muddy plugs that look like goose droppings all over your lawn.
Comment by Eddie — April 9, 2008 @ 8:03 am
Tim–kudos to your YW. There actually is something stopping them from raising money for a trip: Church guidelines are that fundraising can ONLY be done for one annual camp. That is Girls Camp for the YW.
Comment by ESO — April 9, 2008 @ 8:13 am
I have been in a ward where the dollar amounts suggested are a drop in the bucket and activities like this were encouraged for the youth. I have also been in a ward where it would be a joke to even think of a trip like this. This inequality in wards in the church is astounding depending on where you live.
Comment by green mormon architect — April 9, 2008 @ 8:35 am
ESO, I am unfamiliar with such a guideline.
Comment by Tim J. — April 9, 2008 @ 8:46 am
I have been upset with scouts ever since I was a little girl and my Mom was the cub scout leader. I asked her when I got to join cub scouts, and I was told it was only for boys. I asked her why, then, she was in charge. Women could teach and be in charge of something they were never allowed to participate in? It made no sense to my five year old brain, and almost 25 years later, still does not make sense. I also think this trip is excessive, even if it was for both sexes. Not just because there are starving children in Africa, but that there are starving children just across town. Besides, the church lately has told us we overschedule our children, and I would say that 12 days is an “overschedule”. Plus, I am sure that as a parent I would be expected to “contribute” to the fundraising. I would rather use my money to have a family trip, and give all my kids a learning experience.
Comment by Maren — April 9, 2008 @ 8:49 am
Sorry, I haven’t been able to keep up with all the comments, but here are my reactions.
Maybe it was unfair to set this up as a scout activity, and we could have achieved a little more clarity if it had been the YW who had proposed spending this amount on a Caribbean cruise or trip to Hawaii. However, in real life that would never happen, and in real life, this was a scout activity.
The idea that the fundraising that is proposed is anything but a thinly-veiled rip-off of the ward members is absolutely ludicrous. If people want to pay someone else 30 bucks to mow their lawns, they are already doing it, and it is paid to a legitimate company which brings its own equipment and carries liability insurance and workman’s comp on its employees. Let’s face the facts, people: a 14 year-old boy’s time isn’t worth 30 dollars an hour. Most of them have a hard time holding down a minimum wage job working the deep fat fryer at the Burger King. It would be one thing if they wanted to save the money out of their regular part-time earnings after tithing, F.O., mission savings, etc., but it is safe to say that there isn’t one boy in a thousand who wants it that badly, so we have to come up with these phony schemes and pretend that they are “earning” their way. That is a big load of bull-oney. Fundraising of this sort fleeces church members just as much as fraudulent inventments run by white collar criminals, and the result is young men who soon develop an inflated sense of their own entitlement. What is sold as a once in lifetime event becomes expected every year as an integral part of the church program (see comment 55). I think trips like this illustrate quite well what Elder Bednar meant when he said that too much is done in the church for too few, and also what Elder Maxwell meant when he said that we do so much for our youth that they are almost done in.
It continues to interest me that we will bend the rules for scouts, but not for anything else. People who would rather die than let their daughter get two ear piercings have no problem at all setting aside church guidelines for scout activities. Apparently, we perceive a lot of value in BSA activities which makes the rule-bending worthwhile. For my part personally, I have seen LDS bashing done by non-LDS scouters that reminds me of the DAMU. Our bishops and SPs are regularly described as clueless, and as out-of-touch guys who “just don’t get it”, and the frugality the church enforces is a topic of derision.
Since this is a real life example, and it is in the past, I can tell you what actually happened and how the bishop handled it.
Several members of the council came to the bishop privately and voiced their concern about the activity’s extravagance. The bishop shared that concern, and invited the YM president to prepare a document showing the balance in the young men’s mission savings accounts. At that point, the pretense was over. He also disclosed (as Ronan very perceptively suggested) that the ward’s entire total for fast offering and PEF donations for the year amounted to less than the YM were proposing to spend on their two week activity. He told the YM president that if he, the bishop, allowed 30 people to spend more on an activity than the entire ward donated in an entire year to F.O and PEF, then he would deserve and expect to rot in hell forever.
Comment by Mark IV — April 9, 2008 @ 8:52 am
Well, the method of fundraising is a bit odd, to be honest, but I think that reflexive opposition to this kind of a trip is a bad idea.
Philmont is very much a significant experience in many peoples’ lives, and it’s not just a matter of the days there, but the philmont experience is about more than just the week and a half there. It’s also about the preparation–physical, mental, and indeed finacial.
Moreover, the lead-up time for Philmont is so long that there should a variety of ways to organize fundraising and individual contributions (through kinds summer jobs, etc.) Just to get a troop signed up for Philmont is an accomplishment…generally one that happens more than a year in advance of the actual trip.
Comment by TMD — April 9, 2008 @ 8:53 am
Ahhh the self-righteous bloggernacle. Can’t get enough.
Comment by Tim J. — April 9, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Tim J:
Even though you are unfamiliar with such a guideline, it is nonetheless a guideline. See comment 89.
Comment by Mark IV — April 9, 2008 @ 9:07 am
Amen, Mark IV.
Comment by Jeremy — April 9, 2008 @ 9:18 am
#137 - Amen.
When you sit in a position to have this discussion in your office, followed immediately by talking with a father of 6 who is coming to you for help feeding his family - and you know you will have to draw money from SLC to do so because your ward’s Fast Offering funds don’t cover the needs of the ward - it changes your perspective more than a little.
Comment by Ray — April 9, 2008 @ 9:22 am
Here in TX we have been doing the flag raiser for about 8 years now.
For $35 you get a flag on major holidays. The ward troop raises about 2K this way.
Last time we went to Philmont the left over money from the previous year combined with the current year was about 50% of the cost to go to Philmont for 8 days.
Comment by bbell — April 9, 2008 @ 9:33 am
I got to this late, and it really hit a nerve with me. So much has been said that I would have said, but I’ll just say that I have seen similar kinds of things myself.
Mark, it sounds like it got handled effectively. Church fundraising for scouts is only allowed for one summer activity and camping equipment, and the $1,000 per boy is outrageous.
Philmont might be great, but how do you explain to the poor wards in a stake that the Stately Heights ward gets to fly their boys to Philmont, while Struggly Bottoms branch fights to get their boys to the local scout camp at $175 per boy?
And don’t get me started on the disparity issues between YM/Scouts and YW funding. The budget guidelines are supposed to eliminate these kind of issues. When I served as bishop, we set aside some funds out of the budget and YW fundraising for a short, High Adventure activity for our girls. Last time I did a High Adventure for the boys as YM president, we took a day, and included the YW in sort of an urban Amazing Race activity. The girls loved it, and the boys were better behaved that day. A good time was had by all.
Glad this got quashed, Mark.
Comment by Kevinf — April 9, 2008 @ 10:02 am
#140, The handbook leaves much of the decision to the Bishop and SP.
Comment by Tim J. — April 9, 2008 @ 10:19 am
***
My ward has a slush fund with over $750,000 in it.
***
I know of several other slush funds in other wards.
- Just thought I would throw that out.
Comment by Binky — April 9, 2008 @ 10:27 am
After reading Mike L’s comment #74 I have to jump down and comment.
Why should the scout troop be restricted from doing something any other scout troop would be free to do, just because they are affiliated with the ward?…The young men shouldn’t be punished because they belong to a troop that is affiliated with the ward instead of another troop
Comment by KLC — April 9, 2008 @ 10:32 am
Mat (#116)–I think you raise important points, but they’re for a different discussion. I did get a solid impression from something President Samuelson said he thinks our new Humanities building is a excessive (though it was privately funded). BYU does have scholarship programs like SOAR, and we have programs for students to do cultural studies/work outside the USA, but there are ironies. If this were a different discussion, we could talk about how far the Perpetual Education Fund could reach, how schools like Benemerito in Mexico could be enlarged to benefit more people, how Church schools like the Liahona in Tonga function, how BYU and other Church schools could work in various inner cities and bring students from underprivileged backgrounds to our universities, etc.–and how they could be helped to thrive after arrival. But this is not that discussion.
I’m thrilled you enjoyed Bruce’s class. He’s a really hard teacher, isn’t he. But he is so good. Why don’t you e-mail me personally and let me pass on that compliment. He is having a hard time this week.
Comment by Margaret Young — April 9, 2008 @ 10:33 am
Whoops, I got my block quote messed up. The second paragraph is quoted from Mike L. The block quote is my own.
Comment by KLC — April 9, 2008 @ 10:33 am
Binky, slush funds are verboten under current church budget guidelines. The twice yearly audits specifically ask about any other accounts outside the regular church accounts. The infamous “Other” account is notorious for abuses, and are normally monitored to prevent such funds from accumulating. Even your scout troop is not supposed to have a separate checking account, but all expenditures are to go through the regular church accounts.
$750,000 sounds like an excommunicable offense!:)
Comment by Kevinf — April 9, 2008 @ 10:36 am
Emoticons are now failing me. Should read “…excommunicable offense.:
Comment by Kevinf — April 9, 2008 @ 10:36 am
Sorry for three comments in a row, but KLC, Scouting should be in service to the priesthood purposes of the church, not the church in service to the purposes of the BSA.
I suspect the day will come when the church does abandon the BSA program, and I for one, in spite of being a former scoutmaster, and father of five boys, will not shed a tear.
Comment by Kevinf — April 9, 2008 @ 10:40 am
Ditto that, Kevin.
I think that one of the main problems with LDS scouting is that it’s “required”, whereas outside the Church most people involved in scouting (including the leaders) are there because they want to be.
In the Church, the scout leaders are there because it’s a calling, in other words, a “divine obligation”… Thus, more than occasionally, this affects the quality of the programs we have in our LDS troops.
Comment by Eddie — April 9, 2008 @ 10:57 am
Amen Kevin & Eddie,
Having tried to run a decent scouting program in a struggling ward with no funds and little interest from the boys or parents, I am of the opinion that the Church should get out of scouting and let those who still desire to participate join a real troop. At the very least, outside of the Mormon Corridor scouting should be done on a stake level, where numbers would be high enough to form a decent-sized troop (non-LDS troops usually have at least 50), and where there is far more likelihood of finding a dedicated and enthusiastic leader. And the stake scoutmaster should be a long-term calling. My ward has put a lot of time and money into training ward scout leaders just to have them move or get released.
Comment by Rob G — April 9, 2008 @ 11:03 am
Kevinf, I think you misread me if you have the impression that I’m a gung ho scouter. I was in that training under duress of my temple covenenants. My comment was just an illustration of the conflicts and compromises that we as a church have created by letting an external organization serve as the official program for YM.
And your initial couplet summarizes why scouting is disfunctional in the church. How can a national organization like BSA be in service to the priesthood purposes of a single denomination? That is an impossible and pointless goal. The BSA has no interest in our priesthood and scouting in the church began its long decline when we decided to shoehorn it into that priesthood.
Outsourcing any program with priesthood puposes is doomed to failure.
Comment by KLC — April 9, 2008 @ 11:09 am
Kevinf
As a Bishop, neither will I. I can safely say that most of my administrative headaches seem to funnel through the scouting program. I wish that we could concentrate on the Duty to God program with out the added trappings and funding issues that go with scouting.
Comment by Darrell — April 9, 2008 @ 11:09 am
Woo-hoo. Sounds like the trolls keep three-quarters of a million floating around to help send the little trolls to scout camp…
Comment by Researcher — April 9, 2008 @ 11:09 am
Everyone that has ever gone to Philmont will tell you it is a life changing experience. However, the cost does seem excessive and really if there are that many YM in the ward that want to go, this does not have to be a church sponsored activity. For all the women bellyaching about the “fun” that boys get to have and the “girls” don’t…what are you doing to change this. You are not limited to activities through the church only. If you want to go camping with other YW, do it. I have served in the YW organization and heard these complaints before but find that when the YW are challenged to plan activities to do themselves, nothing ever happens. And they still can’t cook, sew, or any of the other useful tasks they might learn because no one is teaching them at home. So, as YW leaders we continue to try and foster these skills as best we can.
Comment by PENNYM — April 9, 2008 @ 11:11 am
KLC, # 155,
That pretty much sums up my call as scoutmaster. I spent thirty minutes explaining my beef with the BSA, and outlining what kind of troop I would likely run. I got called anyway.
I hated the BSA sponsored-camps, such as camporees, or the BSA summer camps. It puts LDS troops with budget limitations and reduced numbers of boys in direct competition with non-LDS troops with three times the number of boys, five times the number of adult leaders, and unheard of levels of financing. Those kinds of camps generally were less fun for our boys, but did produce more merit badges.
Our best outings involved camping and hiking on our own, with heavy doses of scripture study, prayer, church hymns, and some unstructered time.
Scouting is a good program, and earning an Eagle is a worthwhile goal, but don’t ever forget the priesthood purposes of the YM program, and spend more time doing things related to Duty to God, with a focus on mission prep. All of that can be done within the church budget guidelines.
Comment by Kevinf — April 9, 2008 @ 11:28 am
hey, I did plenty of fun things out side of the church as a girl. However, it does kind of suck that I had to go outside to find my fun and adventure. But my main point was that my own mother-a woman- was called to be in charge of the fun, but as a child, she could not participate, or officially have her daughter participate (I did anyway, because there was no one to baby sit me, but the idea still upset me.)
Comment by Maren — April 9, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
Woah- wait a minute….
PEF and Fast offerings were less than $33,000 a year!!!
That ward has problems!
Assuming 100 ward families paying $40 a month to fast offerings… that should easily make $48,000 a year. For a comfortably middle class Utah ward those numbers shouldn’t be too far off…
I mean… I remember when my parents made $30,000 a year, and they usually payed about $50 a month.
I mean I try for between ten and twenty dollars a month on $10,000 a year and I feel guilty that I’m not doing more.
That changes everything in my opinion.
Good for the Bishop shooting this down.
Comment by Cicero — April 9, 2008 @ 12:45 pm
#128 is the only comment I’ve seen that addresses the real problem: why is i