Your Friday Firestorm #40
And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the aland of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people. And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them. And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off. And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.
Great scripture. Thanks for posting it.
Comment by john f. — March 28, 2008 @ 5:16 am
I remember telling a German friend at the BYU that the USA was the promised land (and that he should get busy magnifying his calling if he expected to maintain residency). He protested, but I had scripture on my side.
Comment by Peter LLC — March 28, 2008 @ 5:40 am
That’s quite the word of warning. I take comfort in the fact that we’ve made great strides in stopping child and spouse abuse, overcoming the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the past, and maintain a government that is comparatively free of corruption.
I think we’re much safer from being swept off now than we were 50 years ago.
Comment by Randall — March 28, 2008 @ 5:48 am
We’ve also made great strides in the last 50 years of preserving the institution of marriage and family. /s
Comment by AH — March 28, 2008 @ 5:58 am
Wow. The people living in Tehuantepec better watch their step.
Comment by Norbert — March 28, 2008 @ 6:14 am
I’m with Norbert. We’re in an odd position in this immigration debate, all of us, if Central America is the promised land as our current discussions of Book of Mormon geography would suggest. Maybe all those Mennonite communities I noticed when I was down there have read the Book of Mormon more closely than we all.
Comment by Sam MB — March 28, 2008 @ 6:49 am
Randall,
A government that is comparatively free of corruption? Are you kidding me? This government employs torture and starts illegal wars. This government is illegally spying on Americans and asking for unconstitutional retroactive immunity for those crimes. (It actually is written in the Constitution that there shall be no retroactive immunity laws passed). This is a highly corrupt government we’ve got here.
Comment by Dan — March 28, 2008 @ 6:54 am
Oooookay, Dan. (Pats head.)
Comment by Norbert — March 28, 2008 @ 7:17 am
I have a map that shows the Jaredites landing in Ecuador. God bless Rafael Vicente Correa Delgado!
Comment by Ronan — March 28, 2008 @ 7:32 am
I have to say we do live in a great land - I mean just look at the corruption in China right now and the uprising of Buddhist monks. I’m glad the prejudice prevalent in the USA before the last 10 or 20 years has finally subsided a bit. Hopefully it will continue to decline, while preserving some integrity in our politics.
Comment by Matt — March 28, 2008 @ 8:01 am
I’m with Norbert and Sam MB here. All of our “promised land” notions get quite a twist when we turn to the limited geography theory.
But to be fair, one could easily view “this land” as a general reference to the entire continent, regardless of how small an area the Nephites and Lamanites actually inhabited.
Comment by CE — March 28, 2008 @ 8:22 am
re # 11 — I think that’s right. After all, it’s fairly clear that the Western Hemisphere is indeed separated from the cradle of civilization from massive oceans. I don’t see any reason that adherence to a limited geography theory for the location of certain Nephite cities should preclude understanding sweeping statements such as this from including North America as well.
Comment by john f. — March 28, 2008 @ 8:58 am
CE,
But even if we do extend it, it still creates a twist. Does “this land” include Canada? How about Paraguay or Argentina, Venezuela?
Comment by Joshua Madson — March 28, 2008 @ 8:59 am
I can see wanting to preserve a “righteous people”, but the “land”? It’s just dirt. I can see a people being “holy” or not. But not land, soil, or dirt.
Comment by Bob — March 28, 2008 @ 9:03 am
Well, Bob, when we die, we return to the dust from whence we came. So if the dirt is both the origin of saints as well as full of righteous remains, it stands to reason that we better just go ahead and treat it right.
Comment by Peter LLC — March 28, 2008 @ 9:25 am
Are you kidding?! This is The True North strong and free! we are talking about here. It will play a pivotal role in the Second Coming as the country just north of the one where the actual events will take place.
Comment by Peter LLC — March 28, 2008 @ 9:31 am
Limited geography or not, if you count just LDS members in the US, Central America, and South America (Oh, and Canada), we’re still less than 5% from my recollection of the numbers. We are a long way from being nations that serve God.
On the other hand, the scripture says:
.
If we are still here, and still striving, then the “fulness” of iniquity is not absolute. We’ve got a long way to go, despite the positive changes, often counterbalanced by the negative changes, that have taken place.
If Kevin Barney or anyone else out there knows why fulness is spelled this way here and in D&C 93, instead of fullness, which spellchecker likes, I’d be curious to know what you think.
Comment by Kevinf — March 28, 2008 @ 9:38 am
RE: Joshua Madson (#13)–
Sure, an interpretation broad enough to include the U.S.A. would seem to also cover all of those countries too. So the twist remains–but only for those who would wish to reserve special status for only the land within the precise boundaries of the U.S.A.
Comment by CE — March 28, 2008 @ 9:41 am
Steve,
That clip was priceless beyond compare.
#10, of course by comparison to China and Saudi Arabia our government is a shining jewel. But I still think it has much to be improved upon. Last year I had a friendly visit by the FBI because I sent a quotation to a company in Dubai. So yes, the government has and is monitoring your emails (well, maybe just mine). That scares me. I don’t think that’s what America was supposed to be about. And yes, I still love this country.
Comment by MattG — March 28, 2008 @ 9:44 am
But to the real Firestorm:
Certain leaders from the Religious Right have claimed that 9/11, Katrina, AIDS, etc. were punishments from God. I don’t believe in those notions at all. But I have to admit that Book of Mormon passages like this could be used to support such ideas.
Comment by CE — March 28, 2008 @ 9:49 am
Someone’s gunning for a Niblet (Peter LLC)
Comment by Steve Evans — March 28, 2008 @ 9:55 am
Well, CE, if God doesn’t so much punish us as allow us to experience the consequences of our actions–some of which will lead to our destruction–couldn’t you then say the 9/11, Katrina, and AIDS are consequences of our national and personal bad choices? Katrina’s maybe the odd one out there, unless you buy into the idea that it was worse because of global warming.
Comment by kristine N — March 28, 2008 @ 10:17 am
I recently read this passage and my initial impression is we aren’t doing to well. Greed, blue and white collar crime, denial of God, Jesus Christ as a butt of jokes and the holy who, we are at a point that it could go either way as far as I’m concerned. Even in this blog folks are talking about the land being “just dirt”. How about the whole planet becoming sacred and we take God’s offer of stewardship seriously. Should we stop tearing up the rainforests to raise cattle for MacDonald’s Hamburgers? Maybe we should stop poisoning the Oceans with human waste and industrial chemicals. Mothers and fathers killing their children and each other, pedophilia on the rise, shootings in schools, the list goes on. Repect for human life is that better or worse? I’ll stop now because I have a cold and the world looks a little less positive today. I just think we need to be real about the world, work hard to live the best lives we can and hope the Savior comes soon to straighten out this mess.
Comment by Ogan — March 28, 2008 @ 10:37 am
“Mothers and fathers killing their children and each other, pedophilia on the rise, shootings in schools, the list goes on.”
Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
Comment by Steve Evans — March 28, 2008 @ 10:39 am
I’ve got some pork for anyone who casts the right vote.
Comment by Peter LLC — March 28, 2008 @ 10:40 am
And don’t forget the damage done by that stinker Lions for Lambs.
Comment by Peter LLC — March 28, 2008 @ 10:43 am
Kevinf #17 you brought up the 5% LDS membership in relationship to “nations that serve God”. What about the other Christians? Aren’t they serving the God of the land?
Comment by CW — March 28, 2008 @ 11:34 am
While we are pointing out the sins of this land. Let’s not forget the real hell America has descended into where we now let women vote, let alone think. We’ve been robbed by liberals of our real cheap labor source, children. Lets not forget my personal favorite sign of the coming apocalypse, miscegenation. And how could they end slavery of blacks and genocide of Native Americans. We used to be so Christian, God even helped us win that revolutionary war.
Maybe being a Christian land has less to do with professions of faith and more to do with treating each other humanely. I wonder if in the great balancing scales, the sins of today, leaving aside the current war, pale in comparison to those of the good ole’days. If God didnt destroy us for our past sins and as some would argue helped us win a war, is he really going to end it all over men getting married or sex-ed classes?
Comment by Joshua Madson — March 28, 2008 @ 12:20 pm
CW, we were discussing a Book of Mormon scripture, and so I applied it directly to our church. Certainly there are others out there serving God, otherwise, our missionary program would be pointless. We do not have a monopoly on charity and goodness.
I was only pointing out that as a church, we are a small portion of the the peoples in the western hemisphere, and thought about Abraham’s plea to the Lord to save Sodom and Gomorrah if even, perchance, one righteous person could be found there. We are the leavening, not the whole loaf of bread.
Comment by Kevinf — March 28, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
I love the American outlook on their own country! Do Americans ever wonder what goes on beyond their shores?
Comment by John Deacon — March 28, 2008 @ 12:37 pm
#10 - Scary! I hope they were nice! I agree that America has tons of problems - I’ll be the first to admit that, but one thing we have that many countries on earth don’t have is freedom. We are free to pursue our dreams and think what we want to think and it’s gotten better in recent years. Yes, that freedom is in jeopardy with any abuse of the bloated Patriot Act, but I have hope no vigilante FBI agent is going to do something stupid.
Comment by Matt — March 28, 2008 @ 12:54 pm
In the movie Erik the Viking, they go to an island looking for the Horn Resounding. On this island civilization no blood has ever been shed. When one drop is shed as the greedy villain tries to steal the horn the whole island begins to sink. The King gathers his citizens together and they sing a song called This Is Not Happening. They sing this is not happening until their heads are under water and they are drown.
Maybe some of you who find this blog funny and a chance to demonstrate your cleverness should put on your blinders and look for choir practice.
Comment by Ogan — March 28, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
As long as I can wear one of those cool helmets…
Comment by MattG — March 28, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
Hahaha - good one MattG
Comment by Matt — March 28, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
#32:Maybe some of you who find this blog funny and a chance to demonstrate your cleverness …?”. I did,but not anymore!!
I am sorry I missed “Erik the Viking”, and thanks for the timely heads up on repentance.
Comment by Bob — March 28, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
Nothing like Ragnarok and Ivar the Boneless to bring it all home, Ogan. Not quite an applicable allegory. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Horrible things have been happening here on this, the American Continent since people started living here. As others have already stated, things have actually been worse. Fear-mongering won’t help things, and I think our beloved departed Pres. Hinckley would agree with me on this point. I think (guess?) Steve’s point was for people to discuss the merits of the American continent being subject to different rules than other lands, n’es pas?.
Comment by MattG — March 28, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
“This land” is not defined, but there are clear statements that many peoples were led to it - apparently, given the inclusion of the Jaredite record, over the course of thousands of years. The only obvious description is that it is separated by the great waters from the other lands from which the travelers were led. Finally, are we really applying territorial boundaries that didn’t exist at the time of the prophecies? Without such arbitrary lines, every elementary school student looking at a map of the hemisphere would identify “the land” as the entire hemisphere, I think.
I see no problem applying the promised designation to the entire hemisphere, even less than no problem thinking it could be North America - and only philosophical, provincial problems with including the Mounties and their neighbors.
Comment by Ray — March 28, 2008 @ 5:25 pm
Sorry, I missunderstood and didn’t realize the blog was just about land.
To Moses and the Jews the Promised Land was Israel. To Jared and Lehi it was the new world now the Americas. Zion was the City of Enoch and then for Joseph it was to be built in Far West, Missouri. For Brigham and the Utah Saints it was/is the Wasatch Front.
President Hinckley said at the November 2007 conference quote, “Stakes of Zion today flourish in every state of the United States, in every province of Canada, in every state of Mexico, in every nation of Central America and throughout South America.
Congregations are found throughout the British Isles and Europe, where thousands have joined the Church through the years. This work has reached out to the Baltic nations and on down through Bulgaria and Albania and other areas of that part of the world. It reaches across the vast area of Russia. It reaches up into Mongolia and all down through the nations of Asia into the islands of the Pacific, Australia, and New Zealand, and into India and Indonesia. It is flourishing in many of the nations of Africa.”
Is it possible that in this day an age of global communities that the Earth in its entirety is the promised land? “The earth abideth forever, Eccl. 1: 4. The sea of glass is the earth in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state, D&C 77: 1. The earth must be sanctified and prepared for the celestial glory, D&C 88: 18-19.”
Fear mongering? No. I just want people to be aware of the tremendous amount of work we still need to do so that our promised land and Zion are where ever we live no matter what part of the planet we reside.
Comment by Ogan — March 28, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
Promised land or not, I think we can all agree that we’re in trouble in a great deal of ways…Fun discussion to read though :o)
Comment by Stan — March 28, 2008 @ 7:57 pm
This is not happening. This is not happening.
Comment by Joshua Madson — March 28, 2008 @ 8:27 pm
No. 17 kevinf, fulness is a now somewhat archaic British spelling. It is the spelling used in the KJV, and so also in our modern scripture from that influence.
British spelling sometimes doubles consonants that American spelling doesn’t, and vice versa. See here for details.
Comment by Kevin Barney — March 28, 2008 @ 10:44 pm
re: 24 Amen, Steve.
Oh, we got trouble!
Comment by MikeInWeHo — March 29, 2008 @ 10:49 am
Right here!
Comment by MikeInWeHo — March 29, 2008 @ 10:50 am
MikeInWeHo hit it right on the head with the last one.
“P” from Promised Land rhymes with pool, and that’s trouble indeed.
Comment by Stan — March 29, 2008 @ 8:40 pm