Your (not) Monday poll #7

By: Ronan - October 31, 2007

Where in the Greater Kansas City area do you think the Temple will be located

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51 Comments

  1. Paging Dr. Roswell. (What brought this on, Ronan, my good man?)

    Comment by J. Nelson-Seawright — October 31, 2007 @ 10:24 am

  2. I love that Mormonism is very open to the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. It’s a great religion for scifi fans.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — October 31, 2007 @ 10:26 am

  3. J.
    Something to do with the Lords of Kobol imagery on the MiH thread. Halloween too. Plus, I spent about 1/2 hour last night watching The Thing clips on Youtube. Someone commented that if there is an infinite universe then The Thing must exist somewhere.

    Comment by RonanJH — October 31, 2007 @ 10:26 am

  4. Ronan, don’t try to frighten us with The Thing. That movie is super-scary, but not in mere YouTube clips.

    Carl Sagan would be proud of your poll, but would reject the concept of humanoid life elsewhere.

    Comment by Steve Evans — October 31, 2007 @ 10:29 am

  5. I love that Mormonism is very open to the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. It’s a great religion for scifi fans.

    What he said.

    Comment by Dan — October 31, 2007 @ 10:29 am

  6. For being as early a revelation as it is, I think Moses is pretty revolutionary (Chapter 1):

    34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

    35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

    Comment by J. Stapley — October 31, 2007 @ 10:33 am

  7. These polls never leave room for us gutless flip floppers. I want a firm “Maybe” option!

    Comment by Matt W. — October 31, 2007 @ 10:34 am

  8. Anybody notice how many Mormon Science Fiction/Fantasy writers there are out there (not just Orson Scott Card)? Obviously there are things in our doctrine that prompt this.

    Comment by kevinf — October 31, 2007 @ 10:34 am

  9. J. #6, I know how the quoted verses are often read, but it’s worth pointing out that they say there are many worlds — we know that, because our science folks have seen them — but they don’t say there are people on them. It’s not specific on that point one way or the other.

    Comment by J. Nelson-Seawright — October 31, 2007 @ 10:38 am

  10. JNS, right, but isn’t vs. 34 an awkward way of saying there are a lot of Adams?

    Comment by J. Stapley — October 31, 2007 @ 10:39 am

  11. Yeah, but not in this solar system.

    Unless they’re hiding in tunnels on Mars.

    Comment by Mark B. — October 31, 2007 @ 10:39 am

  12. And what about the old anti- canard about getting your own planet in the next life??

    Comment by Mark B. — October 31, 2007 @ 10:40 am

  13. Sometimes when I’m drunk on Red Bull I pit Drake’s equation (there are 10,000 worlds in the Milky Way with civilisations that could communicate with us) against the Fermi paradox (why haven’t they communicated with us). After a couple of RB’s plus a Null Komma Josef I think that this proves the existence of God: something or someone is stopping the worlds communicating.

    But these are only the caffeinated ramblings of a mild barley-drinker.

    Comment by RonanJH — October 31, 2007 @ 10:42 am

  14. J. #10, maybe; who knows? Couldn’t it also be a claim that Adam is many in the sense of containing the seeds of many within him? In the same way Eve is the mother of all living?

    Comment by J. Nelson-Seawright — October 31, 2007 @ 10:45 am

  15. The only place there’s evidence for life is on Earth. What is the probability of life elsewhere given that we’ve observed life on Earth? Let’s think about this using the null hypothesis that life exists only on Earth. Our data are observing life on Earth. The probability of observing life on Earth given that there’s only life on Earth is 1. The probability of observing life on Earth given the alternative hypothesis that there is life on Earth and life elsewhere is 1. By Bayes’ Rule, this means that finding life on Earth is totally uninformative about the possibility of finding life anywhere else.

    Intuitively, imagine that life exists on one planet and one planet only. Then it’s obvious that anyone reasoning about the existence of life on other planets would necessarily be located on the one planet where there is life. So it’s really unwise to draw conclusions about extraterrestrial life based on Earth life.

    Comment by J. Nelson-Seawright — October 31, 2007 @ 10:54 am

  16. Drunk on Red Bull? Man Ronan you are crazy. C-C-Crazy.

    Comment by amri — October 31, 2007 @ 10:54 am

  17. Amri,
    It gets better: I’ve seen a UFO. Really.

    Comment by RonanJH — October 31, 2007 @ 10:55 am

  18. Of course there are humanoids on other planets. They aren’t near to us, but I’m sure they’re there. I have always interpreted the Moses 1:34-35 verses that way at least.

    And wasn’t it Carl Sagan who said just by the vast numbers of stars and solar systems there are out there, that it should be something like a million earth’s in existence. Just through mathematical probability there must be humanoid life on other planets.

    I have absolutely nothing to back this up with of course.

    Comment by meems — October 31, 2007 @ 11:03 am

  19. Wha?!?!?

    Why have you kept this information from us? Knowledge is for sharing. Don’t be stingy.

    Sigh. I’ve never been drunk with red bull. Or seen a UFO. or worn tight pants.

    Comment by amri — October 31, 2007 @ 11:11 am

  20. 17 - But Kucinich has!

    Comment by Jacob M — October 31, 2007 @ 11:15 am

  21. So if there is other intelligent life out there, and we were able to make contact with them translate languages, would we expect them to have a plan of salvation based theology similar to our own? Would it undermine our faith if they didn’t?

    Comment by spencerwa — October 31, 2007 @ 11:18 am

  22. Ronan,

    You sure that red bull doesn’t have a bit of vodka in it, mate?

    Comment by Kaimi — October 31, 2007 @ 11:22 am

  23. Truth is reason; truth eternal
    Tells me I’ve a martian there.

    Comment by David T. — October 31, 2007 @ 11:23 am

  24. Amri #19, here is the wisdom of the Most Interesting Man in the World for the benefit of our friend Brother Ronan:

    “If you can see the coins in a man’s pocket, he’d better use them to call a tailor.”

    (From a Dos Equis commercial currently playing on TV in the States.)

    Comment by Kevin Barney — October 31, 2007 @ 11:23 am

  25. There were humanoids on other planets, but the Cylons killed them off.

    Comment by Aaron Brown — October 31, 2007 @ 11:26 am

  26. Thanks for pointing out Kevin that I will never see that commercial.

    Comment by amri — October 31, 2007 @ 11:27 am

  27. Amri, wrong again!

    Comment by Steve Evans — October 31, 2007 @ 11:36 am

  28. Kevin/Amri,
    Cease.

    Comment by RonanJH — October 31, 2007 @ 11:36 am

  29. And what about the old anti- canard about getting your own planet in the next life??

    planet*s* Mark. planet*s*

    Comment by cj douglass — October 31, 2007 @ 11:41 am

  30. That’s funny. Thanks Steve.

    They should show that commercial here. They’re big into tight pants and mesh t-shirts. eek. Or half t-shirts. That’s never a good idea. For women. But especially not for men.

    Comment by amri — October 31, 2007 @ 11:43 am

  31. Life? Certainly possible.

    Intelligent Life? If there’s life, then there’s intelligence of some manner — simply interacting with the environment is a form of awareness. Intelligence scales up from there. There are lots of intelligent species on our planet — we’re only one of them.

    Humanoid life? Can’t think of any plausible (to me, that is) circumstance that would engender humanoid life elsewhere — too many variables have to line up for it to happen. (Caveat: This isn’t the only reason I’m a heretic.)

    Comment by greenfrog — October 31, 2007 @ 11:47 am

  32. “A cotton candy-like cloud of simple sugar drifts in the unspeakably cold center of the Milky Way” (Washington Post)

    Comment by John Mansfield — October 31, 2007 @ 1:04 pm

  33. So if there is other intelligent life out there, and we were able to make contact with them translate languages, would we expect them to have a plan of salvation based theology similar to our own? Would it undermine our faith if they didn’t?

    Not if they are alien Baptists.

    Comment by Talon — October 31, 2007 @ 1:06 pm

  34. So if there is other intelligent life out there, and we were able to make contact with them translate languages, would we expect them to have a plan of salvation based theology similar to our own? Would it undermine our faith if they didn’t?

    A similar question is whether aliens would look like us. If we takes Moses at his word, and there are numerous other worlds like ours, and Christ is the Savior of all of them, and we are made in the image of He and the Father, and they have human looking bodies, but aliens didn’t look like us….what then?

    I think if we made contact with other intelligent life and they didn’t look like us at all, it would be quite the blow to the church. I think I would stop believing.

    Comment by Katie — October 31, 2007 @ 2:41 pm

  35. Katie,
    If contact ever was made, it would change everything, and not just for the church.

    Comment by RonanJH — October 31, 2007 @ 2:46 pm

  36. Ronan, very true. Also, not only Mormonism would have a problem; most major religions are not equipped to integrate such new knowledge into their belief systems. But interestingly, if we did discover new life, and they did look like us, Mormons are the only ones who could really capitalize on it.

    Comment by Katie — October 31, 2007 @ 2:49 pm

  37. I say we check on Kolob First and foremost. That would be our best bet.

    Comment by Jamie Trwth — October 31, 2007 @ 3:02 pm

  38. I’ve seen two UFOs. The more impressive one was also witnessed by my parents and my grandfather. Immediately afterwards my grandfather denied that we saw anything unusual, but the rest of us continue to have no idea what it was we saw, but it was incredibly bright, moved very fast and made a sudden right turn that nobody could explain.

    Comment by a random John — October 31, 2007 @ 3:05 pm

  39. Further to #34, and maybe this has already been covered in other posts, but if Christ is the Savior of all these worlds, how do you think He is taught on those worlds? And presumably they don’t have a Satan, since he and his 1/3 are cast to this world? BTW, Ronan, I fully endorse your Null Komma Josef, es ist sehr frisch.

    Comment by MattG — October 31, 2007 @ 3:15 pm

  40. I don’t see why the discovery of non-humanoid intelligent beings would crush our faith. Wouldn’t they just be another type of species like apes? Apes fit in fine with our Mormon theology. Speaking of which… isn’t it true that gorillas were basically undiscovered by white men until the 1850s or something? So basically when they were discovered it was like finding sasquatches. Moreover, gorillas are not mentioned in the Bible at all. So basically Joseph Smith and his American contemporaries had no idea that gorillas existed. Now think about gorillas. They are pretty amazing beasts… they look a lot like humans. It would have been mind-blowing for an American in 1840 to see a gorilla.

    I just got done reading a biography on Albert Einstein. Here a some mind-blowing facts I learned:

    1. The universe is finite and expanding.

    2. If you traveled in space in a certain direction for a very long time, eventually you would end up right back where you started.

    3. Time slows down as you travel fast, so it is possible to travel into the future.

    Comment by California Condor — October 31, 2007 @ 3:30 pm

  41. Katie - I think stopping belief because we have contact with a non-humanoid alien is a little too dramatic. Our faith would need to be adapted, that’s for sure, but to lose it completely is pretty weak.

    I would see a greater problem if God didn’t look like us humans, but as one of the aliens. Then you might see some major faith problems among us Mormons.

    Comment by Jacob M — October 31, 2007 @ 3:32 pm

  42. Granting:

    1. Jesus is a humanoid.
    2. Jesus is resurrected.
    3. Jesus has not discarded his resurrected body somewhere.
    4. Jesus is more likely to reside on a planet of some sort than in interstellar space.
    5. Jesus does not live on this planet.

    Then:

    There is humanoid life on other planets.

    Comment by Mark D. — October 31, 2007 @ 4:04 pm

  43. There is always the (slim?) possibility that there are other Images for aliens to be made in.

    Comment by Ranbato — October 31, 2007 @ 4:08 pm

  44. It’s probably good that most of us were born on this planet. If we had to find a way to believe in a Jesus that lived and then died for our sins in another galaxy, most of us would be in serious spiritual peril. Can you imagine the job of the prophets on those planets:

    4th Book of George 1:1: “A long time ago in a galaxy far far away…”

    Comment by MCQ — October 31, 2007 @ 4:18 pm

  45. CC-well gorillas are gorillas because they are not as intelligent as humans. But I am saying that if we met aliens that were as intelligent as us and yet did not look like us it could be problematic.

    Jacob-my faith is unforuntaely rather weak right now. So a deal breaker for me, would of course not be a deal breaker for others. I just think that our doctrine does make a great deal out of God being embodied and we being made in that image. So the discovery of other beings that looked radically different than us would certainly require some modifications in that doctrine.

    Comment by Katie — October 31, 2007 @ 4:45 pm

  46. I love that Mormonism is very open to the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. It’s a great religion for scifi fans.

    Many religions were formed from scifi. Scientology for one. What is another one?

    Comment by Jamie Trwth — October 31, 2007 @ 4:47 pm

  47. The Tronians.

    Comment by Steve Evans — October 31, 2007 @ 4:53 pm

  48. #35: Maybe we are prevented from having contact with other worlds because it would be too faith-affirming, so as to not require faith. (I have a concept in my mind; I don’t know if I’m communicating it well, though.)

    Like, Mom tells me the stove’s hot, and if I believe her, then I don’t need to touch it. But if I do touch it, I get burned. No need for faith, I know it myself. Also, Mom is much smarter than I am.

    I feel like there’s some sort of para-doctrine out there along the lines that there are other worlds, but ours was so bad that we had to have a Savior to atone for us. It doesn’t really hold up to much scrutiny, though. The alternative is: multiple Christs, one for each world.

    Bah, what do I know? Is this stove hot?

    Comment by FHL — October 31, 2007 @ 5:34 pm

  49. #44 - All roads lead to Tatooine. If Yoda was based on SWK, anything is possible.

    Comment by Ray — October 31, 2007 @ 5:35 pm

  50. #46: the Jedi (according to census forms)

    Comment by FHL — October 31, 2007 @ 5:36 pm

  51. re: 35
    The Church could adapt easily to the discovery of any kind of life (humanoid or otherwise) out there. That’s the genius of it, Ronan. A conference talk or two later, and before long we’d be sitting in some hotel conference room listening to a Sunstone panel debate the theological implications.

    Comment by MikeInWeHo — November 1, 2007 @ 12:55 am